Elven Kings

[Ñólendil]

I haven't had a chance yet to read everyone's posts.

I fail really to see any good stuff before the quest

Good stuff in him. He's not very personal to the reader before the quest, or at least not as much as he is in Of Beren and Lúthien, but if you don't see any 'good stuff' in him, you're saying he's evil. I know you don't think that, you've already said you don't, but if you don't acknowledge any good in him whatsoever you're looking at him as though he's an Orc, or a Demon or something. But even Orcs are redeemable, and Thingol's definitely not an Orc

Or do you mean good stuff he did? I meant good stuff in him. If you mean the good stuff he did, there is not much to say of a long peaceful reign as King.

It is not that I choose to pick the bad side of the coin, there is just more on that side.

I don't know. I think we may have heard more bad things about him. Or rather, more detail has been given to us in relation to his initial feelings about Beren and Men in general, or his pride, because considering the tale, in depth talks about his good character would be boring. Yet we know he was well liked among his people, he was a just leader, he revered the Valar and their land and wished to see it again. He had strong bonds with his best friend Finwë and was saddened for never meeting him again, welcomed his kin from Finwë. He loved and was loved by Melian the Maia, a wise, kindly, generous and mighty spirit.

He hated the Enemy and all allies of the Enemy. And he did love his kin. He did not foresee Finrod's death, to suppose that is just illogical. We haven't heard that Galadriel told Melian or Thingol of what her brother told her. Doubtless it would have been mentioned had Thingol knew he was sending his grand nephew off to his death as well.

After the Quest of Beren, much more good in him is seen, as you note in a sort of offhand sort of way. We know of his part played in the tragedy of Túrin's life. And in Húrin's (which we know virtually nothing about), that told of his death. We know of his dislike of the Sons of Fëanor because of the evil they did long ago in Eldamar, but also particularly to Curufin and Celegorm because of the evils they accomplished against Beren, Lúthien and Finrod (but nonetheless the evils would not have happened had he never sent Beren off to his death, of which he repented, and also he himself desired to keep the Silmaril, which was dangerous and had good and bad results). He became a much more kindly king, loving and open-minded, etc., etc., etc.. I think we've seen equally his bad side and good side.

I find a theory involving the final days of Beren and Lúthien as unhappy to be unwarranted and unlikely. Unwarranted because there is absolutely nothing that might suggest this (as you know, unless you think the w/o certitude tells us something) and their relationship alone suggests the contrary. Unlikely because we are here in a way talking about John Ronald Tolkien and his wife Edith. He wouldn't give their marriage a sad ending! I've already addressed the 'w/o certitude' quote. The passage was referring to the opposing choice of staying in Aman, which in theory was a promise to bliss and peace. Nothing can be certain in a life in Middle-earth, that I believe is the extent of the passage's meaning.

Easterlinge, I definitely agree with Sister in that Thingol was a racist. The Halethrim event happened before Beren was born. Thingol allowed them to stay there so long as they did not allow Orcs into the land! He knew what happened to Haleth's brother and father, so that tells you what he thought of them. Only after Beren returned did his views begin to change. He does seem to have had some friendship with the Dwarves of Ered Luin before the disaster of Doriath though. Unfortunately, we do not know exactly what happened. If you have War of the Jewels (Vol. XI of HoMe, which I received recently as an extremely early birthday present), you'll be able to read about what really happened in the Fall of Doriath. Or rather, you'll find out we don't know what really happened. Christopher altered and added a lot and he deeply regretted doing so.