REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Two letters from the times of the Early Christians:

"The Epistle of St. Ignatius to St. John the Apostle

Ignatius, and the brethren who are with him, John the holy presbyter.

We are deeply grieved at thy delay in strengthening us by thy addresses and consolations; thy absence be prolonged, it will disappoint many of us. Hasten, then, to come, for we believe it is expedient. There are also many of our women here, who are desirous to see Mary of Jesus, and wish day by day to run off from us to you, that they may meet with her, and touch those breasts of hers which nourished the Lord Jesus, and may inquire of her respecting some rather secret matters. But Salome also, whom thou lovest, who stayed with her five months at Jerusalem, and some other well-known persons, relate that she is full of all graces and all virtues, after the manner of a virgin, fruitful in virtue and grace. And, as they report, she is cheerful in persecutions and afflictions, free from murmuring in the midst of penury and want, grateful to those that injure her, and rejoices when exposed to troubles; she sympathizes with the wretched and the afflicted as sharing in their afflictions, and is not slow to come to their assistance. Moreover, she shines forth gloriously as contending in the fight of faith against the pernicious conflicts of vicious principles or conduct. She is the lady of our new religion and the handmaid among the faithful in all works of piety. She is indeed devoted to the humble, and she humbles herself more devotedly than the devoted, and is wonderfully magnified by all, while at the same time she suffers detraction from the Scribes and Pharisees. Besides these points, many relate to us other things regarding her. We do not, however, go so far as to believe all in every particular; nor do we mention such to thee. But, as we are informed by those who are worthy of credit, there is in Mary the mother of Jesus an angelic purity of nature allied with the nature of humanity. And such reports as these have greatly excited our emotions, and urge us eagerly to desire a sight of this (if it be lawful so to speak) heavenly prodigy and most sacred marvel. But do thou in haste comply with this our desire; and fare thou well. Amen.



The Epistle of Ignatius to the Virgin Mary

Her friend Ignatius to the Christ-bearing Mary.

Thou oughtest to have comforted and consoled me who am a neophyte, and a disciple of thy John. For I have heard things wonderful to tell respecting thy Jesus, and I am astonished by such a report. But I desire with my whole heart to obtain information concerning the things which I have heard from thee, who wast always intimate and allied with Him, and who wast acquainted with His secrets. I have also written to thee at another time, and have asked thee concerning the same things. Fare thou well; and let the neophytes who are with me be comforted of thee, and by thee, and in thee. Amen."

As for the Immaculate Conception...well, the Blessed Virgin herself appeared to a little French girl, and referred to herself as "the Immaculate Conception". Incidentally, that little French girl is now looking beautiful, her spirit having departed over a century ago.

Think of it this way. What was the holiest object in the Old Testament? The Ark of the Covenant. Why was the Ark of the Covenant holy? Because of what it contained (the Rod of Aaron, the first priest, manna, and the Word of God enscribed in stone), and Who rested there (the shekinah glory, the Holy Spirit). The Blessed Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. She is holy because of what she contained (The body of the Eternal High Priest (rod of Aaron), the Bread of Life (manna), and the Word of God enfleshed), and Who rested upon her "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you".

A link on the Immaculate Conception, after digging deep through the link I posted before.

Immaculate Conception

One note on this link: "The person of Jesus Christ is divine, not human" but the person of Jesus Christ is in fact both divine and human.

Incidentally, the phrase "full of grace" appears one other time in the Bible, in John 1: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."