Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
RÃ*an, when you get back and if you read this, would you mind giving me your opinion on my statements on page 45 about who enters the kingdom?

Lief - OK, I'm back now .... comments on the way.... *reads back thru posts*

I agree with you pretty much all of the way, except your conclusion (but perhaps I am misunderstanding it?)

Lief's conclusion
So what I'm trying to bring across is that while you can reach heaven through love, by following Jesus' spirit and following his moral law, it is SO MUCH EASIER to simply accept the words that he has spoken to the world. He has given us the clue to live by. His words enable us to live according to his law, to know what constitutes a sin and what will throw you into the devil's clutches. Following Jesus is the key, following his way. It is possible to struggle along the narrow path, you are walking on his way. But you are walking along it, then, without the benefit of his words and guidance that will protect you.

I think that in a way, you're right when you say "you can reach heaven through love, by following Jesus' spirit and following his moral law" and "it is possible to struggle along the narrow path". I think it's right in the same way that I could say "If I had wings, I could fly" - IOW, it may be true, but the sad fact is that I do NOT have wings *sigh*. And the sad fact is that NO ONE can live without sin *SIGH!* (Romans 3:23 and lots of other places). And that once a person has sinned, then there is rightly and justly a penalty that must be paid, or the result is death (Romans 6:23). And we all know that we have sinned (Romans 2:15). (and again, for the non-Christians, sinning means falling short of God's perfect and holy standard which is for everyone's good - it doesn't mean being a "horrible person". Even "good people" have sinned, just not as much as "bad people". We ALL fall short.)

But then the GOOD news (the meaning of the word "gospel"!) is that God has provided a "free gift" to us - a way to have the penalty paid for us, through the substitutionary death of Jesus (there actually WAS someone that lived a sinless life - Jesus! But he's the only one that ever did and ever will) - this is all over the Bible, but some refs are Romans 6:23, 8:1, 3:24, chapter 5, etc.

And here's another ref for the impossibility of flying w/o Christ(living a sinless life) - Romans 3:20.

Does that make sense?
Did I misunderstand what you were saying? (that you can get to heaven by your own works w/o Christ, but it's a lot harder)

BTW, I totally agree that one can "get to heaven" w/o even having heard the name of Jesus - cf. Abraham. God would not be just if the way was only available to a subset of people, and the Bible states that God desires EVERYONE to accept the free gift of salvation, so it must be available to everyone. It's another sad fact, however, that not everyone WANTS to take it, because part of that means acknowledging that you, yourself are NOT God, and that you, yourself, cannot live a perfect life.

BTW 2 - Did you ever see my discussion on this thread about the "desert island" scenario? I talked a lot about that issue (people being saved before Christ died) in those posts.

BTW 3 - I think the verses you were looking for are in John 14.