Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Rían]

OK - littlest 2 are in bed, older one is watching basketball with dad, his 6th grade science project is 99% finished (ran out of double-sided tape) (project - how far will red laser light go through different colored jello?), and the 6th load of laundry is in the dryer (didn't get ANY laundry done this weekend, too busy! Lots of fun, 'tho - my mother-in-law almost died of cookie inhalation because my sister-in-law and I were making her laugh so hard while she was eating - death certificate would have been funny - "asphyxiation by cookie"?)

I've wanted to get back to what Eärniel and EG had asked about - the (roughly) "can you be saved if you've never heard of Jesus" question. We talked a bit about it, and something EG said in one of her responses stuck out and I thought "No, no, I didn't quite mean it that way", but it just kinda got lost in the queue for a bit. I've been meaning to get back to it, and our pastor mentioned a verse in the sermon yesterday that illustrated what I wanted to bring up about it, so without making this long and ambiguous introductory statement any longer, here's what I wanted to say:

by Eärniel
Your new post gave me an answer but it also raises other questions. Now if I understand correctly this time people (any time any place but I'll leave that out for now) who do not know God or the bible can be saved since in a way they will know him through nature, moral codes, ect... That implies that they might know God in another context than the bible since they don't know the bible. Then how can you be sure that for instance the god of the jews or islamites isn't the christian god in another context? How can you be sure that they are disbelievers and will go to hell?

by Eruviel Greenleaf
tbd...

*rats, can't find EG's quote, but it was something along the lines of if you believe that God exists, you'll be saved (based on my discussion of how Abraham was saved, although he didn't know Jesus) - I'll try to find it tomorrow, but I'll go ahead w/ my comment*

This is one of those complicated topics, as I said before, and I think that I probably wasn't as clear as I wanted to be. What I wanted to re-address and/or clarify was related to Eärniel's second sentence, and EG's quote that I can't find tonite


What I wanted to be sure to get across is that it is NOT MERELY belief in the sense of believing that God exists, it is faith/belief that also includes the placing of yourself under the lordship of God to the extent that it affects your actions. The verse that the pastor mentioned was the following:

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder.

Satan himself believes in God! But Satan has not placed his faith in God - i.e., placed himself in his right and proper position as created being to creator, in loving submission and respect and following God's will (which is always best for us, anyway - God made us and knows how we work and what is best for us - and NOT best in the "this medicine is good for you" sense - God knows, and asks us to do, what will REALLY and TRULY complete us and give us joy).

Abraham, however, had faith in God, and acted on his faith by being (or at least trying to be - he failed many times!) obedient to what he knew of God's will. It wasn't just "ok, I believe that there is a God, but now I'll get on with the rest of my life and not worry about it at all, or how it might affect me." Just one example -

from Genesis 12:1, 4
Now the Lord said to Abram, "Go forth from your country..." ....... So Abram went forth as the Lord had spoken to him.....

Do you see what I mean?

The NT talks about this by clearly stating that we are saved by faith, but also saying that if there are not works (i.e., obedience to God's law), then there is no faith actually present. Works are the evidence of, and the natural outgrowth of, a true faith in God. And even 'tho the desert island guy doesn't have a Bible, still, God's moral code is written on his heart, and he could obey that. I hope that helps to clarify things a bit.