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#11 | ||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Quote:
It's not a matter of God being insufficient alone and so needing Jesus too, from our perspective. Rather, it is our view that Jesus is simply part of God and a natural extension of him. As Jesus said when praying to the Father, "we are one." So saying that God doesn't need a Jesus is like saying, "I don't need my arms." It's not that God is weak and needs a buddy to back him up, but rather it's like us having received an increased knowledge of God's anatomy, and it's rather different from human anatomy. The sun has radiation, light and energy. All three are one, in the sun. And it's not like saying that the sun has radiation means that the sun is insufficient without it- it's just describing in a bit more detail what the sun you have always known is. Quote:
Quote:
I agree with the Jewish view that God is your Father. Christians believe that God is our Father, as well, and we worship him that way. The prayer Jesus taught us starts with, "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name . . ." Remember that Isaiah is part of the Old Testament, and in it, it says, "Unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." That Messianic prophecy says outright that the Messiah will be God, and that's from the Old Testament, not the new. I cited many other Old Testament scriptures also that confirm Jesus as the Messiah. I'd love to go more into it, if you like ![]() Quote:
Stoner's calculations concluded that the probability of Jesus fulfilling by accident just eight of the prophecies he fulfilled in the scripture is one in one hundred million billion. If each of those numbers was a silver dollar, they'd cover the whole state of Texas with a depth of two feet. Mark one silver dollar and have a blindfolded person pick one of the silver dollars up randomly, and that's the likelihood that Jesus would have had of fulfilling those 8 by accident, on his own. Jesus fulfilled at least 48 prophecies that the Jews knew about and accepted as Messianic, at his time. There are actually about 300 prophecies from the Old Testament that he fulfilled, but many of the 300 aren't explicit and are arguable. The odds of an accidental fulfillment of the 48 accepted prophecies, however, are one chance in a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion,trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion. The odds of him having accidentally fulfilled the 48 are the same as you randomly happening to pick the single right atom from all the atoms of a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, billion universes the same size as our own. More than one mathematician has gone over these statistics, and they carefully take into account only those prophecies were considered Messianic by the Jewish community at the time of Christ's fulfillment of them. There were a number of prophecies Jesus didn't fulfill, because we think they relate to the Second Coming. Yet even if he missed fulfilling a bunch of prophecies at the time of his First Coming, that doesn't reduce the improbability that he could have fulfilled as many as he did. Also, there have also been repeated debates in Rabbi circles that I've read about, in which they have struggled to get the picture of the suffering and dying Messiah described in Isaiah to fit with the picture of a triumphant militarily victorious Messiah presented in Zechariah. One Rabbi said in frustration, "It is as though the Old Testament describes two different comings!" That's not an exact quote, but that was the essentials of what he said. If you want me to provide a citation, I can try to do so. It'll take me a few days to get it to you because I don't have the book with me anymore and would have to get it back from my grandmother, but if you doubt me, I could try. The Old Testament is an almost unbelievably remarkable canon of books, not only in terms of historical accuracy and spiritual richness, but also in terms of the precise accuracy of its prophetic fulfillment. Quote:
Though I'm not trying to push this point. It's not anywhere near as important as the fact that God's name in the Old Testament is plural, that he refers to himself as plural, and that the prophecies not only point to Jesus but say in Isaiah 9 that the Messiah would be God. Quote:
But would you provide a link to this site and to the document you're citing from it? You're getting me interested in really checking this out.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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