04-07-2010, 09:14 PM | #521 |
Elf Lord
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Any non-theological reason why not?
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04-08-2010, 01:10 AM | #522 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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Actually I'll be quite interested to see the answer to that. .
I am also gay, and Catholic, so I don't support gay marriage either. But my reasons are actually two-fold... one is religious, the other is that I know it would break my family's heart for me to be in a relationship with another man. Of course my family's reason for being so hurt would be religion, so maybe that only counts as another religious reason? But in my eyes the one reason is religion, and the other is just that I don't want to hurt my family. |
04-08-2010, 02:32 AM | #523 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I'm a theology student; theology bleeds into everything for me. The reasons we give for a position, and the reasons we actually hold that position are often very different. I can give non-theological reasons, but fundamentally my opposition springs from reflection on Paul.
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04-08-2010, 03:45 AM | #524 |
the Shrike
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So, are you both non-practicing homos? Is this how you reconcile being gay with catholicism? (not a loaded question, just genuinely trying to understand).
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04-08-2010, 04:25 AM | #525 | |
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Quote:
For example, my father's family was rabidly prejudiced against Catholics ( my father excepted), and would have been totally opposed to any of us marrying one. When my cousin moved to Vancouver from Edmonton when we were about 12, we were walking along in my neighborhood when we saw a classmate of mine. "Is he Catholic or Protestant?" asked my cousin. Somewhat surprised, I had to think for a minute. "I think he's Catholic," I finally replied. "Then let's get him!" he cried "What are you, some kind of nut!?!" was my astonished rejoinder. (Turns out it was partly a tribal thing; Alberta at that time had separate Catholic and Protestant schools in the public system- in practice Catholic and Everybody Else- and there was constant warfare between kids from each system.) So I was quite surprised when my mother told me that my aunt- that same cousin's mother- was thrilled when informed that my youngest son was an altar boy in a Catholic church. Actually, I think it's due to the same process that has led to (most)Fundamentalist Protestants burying the hatchet with the Scarlet Woman in America- uniting in the face of the greater threat from secularism. Sort of like the neo-cons rushing to the defense of gay rights because it gives them another stick to beat the Muslims with.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 04-08-2010 at 04:46 AM. |
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04-08-2010, 04:45 AM | #526 | |
Elf Lord
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The problem with that is we're talking about public laws in a secular polity. For example, in Islam it is generally accepted that a woman's testimony is worth only half that of a man's, yet we wouldn't accept the argument of a Muslim accused of a crime that we shoudn't listen to a woman testifying against him because the Koran says so.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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04-08-2010, 11:25 AM | #527 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Quote:
GM, I'd like to answer, but I'm currently extremely busy as the semester ends, with 20 pages due tomorrow, 20 more on Monday, and 12 more on Tuesday. Hopefully once I have space to breath, I'll be able to reply.
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04-08-2010, 02:20 PM | #528 |
the Shrike
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Thank you for your answer. I hope it works for you.
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04-08-2010, 09:09 PM | #529 | ||
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I'm sure all of the things I'm about to be say could be said more gooder and with much more finesse and intelligence by Gwai, but what the heck .
Quote:
If two gay men introduce themselves to me as being husbands, I actually do accept it. If I didn't, I would also feel morally obligated to tell common-wealth married straight couples that they're not really married, not to mention people who got married at court houses. While I'm at it I might as well toss in anyone who wasn't married in a Catholic church by a priest . If it became legal where I lived, I would respect the fact that in a legal sense those two men/women would be married. In the eyes of the United States, which is a country that I love living in, those people are married and I do have respect for that fact . But then again when people introduce themselves to me as being married they usually don't stick a question mark in after it. I actually sort of don't have a problem with the idea of gay marriage. In a world where things like strip clubs, pornography, and things like that are legal... I feel like gay marriage is a small fish in a herd of sharks. I will always vote against it, but if it passed I wouldn't consider it the end of the world. There are already ten million things that are considered acceptable, and even lauded, by society that the Catholic Church teaches are wrong. That doesn't mean the Church is going to accept those things, and as a Catholic it's more important to me what the Church teaches. Quote:
For me the answer is yes. I'm a non-practicing gay . Now I'm not advocating orientation changing, which a lot of people seem to think that I do. I am personally not convinced that it can actually be done with much of a success rate based off of the research that I've seen. Also to me 'success' is not being able to marry a woman, it's actually doing away with being gay, and I've not seen many (convincing...) cases of that. Most people who 'become' straight later in life and actually are straight do so without the therapy... for them it's like being homosexual was a phase and (without trying to) they just change. Lucky jerks . |
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04-09-2010, 02:31 PM | #530 | |||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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First paper done, so a brief response during a brief respite. GM, I think Tessar's answer is more or less the same as mine, so I'll mostly frame my response as Variations on a Theme by Tess.
First goodering and more finessing : Quote:
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After that prolegomena: Quote:
If Mr. Smith and Mr. Lane sent me an invitation to their wedding, I would not be able to attend in good conscience. If we were close enough that my absence would raise questions, I would explain as sensitively as I could that my convictions did not permit it. If not, I would simply fail to RSVP. I should say that this is in the abstract; while I do have gay friends IRL, I don't know any gay couples, but this is how I think one with my beliefs ought to respond to a stable same-sex relationship. Quote:
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I used to hope that my homosexuality was a phase, but I've known I was gay for some ten years now, so at this point I just accept it. To further elaborate in response to GrayMouser: On a relational level, my opposition to same-sex marriage would basically reduce to avoiding a same-sex wedding and spousal terms, as I said before. At the same time, I would not offer assent to the reality of such a marriage. Politically speaking, I don't think the state should support it. The claim that "marriage is between a man and a woman" is no more theological than the claim that "marriage is between consenting adults." I offer two of the non-theological reasons I gave earlier: A) Throughout history (at least in the western world, and the context in which we are discussing this is, for better or worse, a western context) there has been no such thing as same-sex marriage, even in those cultures where same-sex relationships were approved. Those few recorded instances are quite obviously intended by those who record them as signs of degeneracy, most notably in Nero and Eliogabalus. This renders them A) historically dubious, and B) even if true, hardly an argument for same-sex marriage. Marriage has never been considered to be between two people of the same sex. To say that it should now be modified in this way is comparable to saying that the understanding of "sibling" should be modified to second cousins. It is perfectly possible to acknowledge the reality of stable same-sex relationships without distorting the meaning of words, and when we begin to distort the meaning of words, we destroy language as the basis of human communication. That's not a path I want to go down. Of course, the meaning of words change over time, but I don't think it's the place of the government to take an active role in disputed philology. B) Only the socio-political aspect of marriage belongs to the provenance of the state. As a socio-political institution, marriage is ordered to the production of children. Yes, of course, this raises issues with infertility, unwillingness to conceive, etc. To my mind, however, these are circumstantial elements of a relationship which render that relationship incapable of production of children. Further, they often prove to be untrue. A couple may change their mind and decide to conceive, or a woman who was told she was barren may prove otherwise (as my mother did!) A same-sex relationship, however, is through its very nature incapable of the production of children. Since this is so, a same-sex relationship lacks the element of marriage which is relevant to the state. The relational element may still be there, but that is not what "matters" in terms of the good of the country. Having said all of that, let me reiterate once again that to my mind, same-sex marriage is a third or at best second order issue, not one which plays a major role in the determination of my vote.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-09-2010, 03:36 PM | #531 | |||||
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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You're correct. I always call it common-wealth because I think of it in terms of they're sharing their possessions and that's what makes it possible for a legal marriage. But yeah, it's actually called common-law. Durh.
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That is what I really meant, but of course you put it more gooder and finenessder than I. |
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04-09-2010, 07:57 PM | #532 |
Elf Lord
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You guys need to get a room! HAHAHA ........ sorry, sorry, really bad taste there
Crikey. Those are tricky ones. I have a lot of sympathy with those of you that are dealing with these issues. All the best with that, sincerely. You know, it is always possible to live a different life. Perhaps it seems like the risk, or potential loss is unacceptable, or indeed immoral. But you never know. Maybe people won't go mental. They probably already know. I have a nephew that is clearly gay, yet he hasn't come out to the family yet. In a sense it closes him off from us, partly. Or rather, it imposes a limit. |
04-09-2010, 10:45 PM | #533 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I know, and I've considered it. I don't think anyone who recognizes themselves to be in this position doesn't undertake some serious soul-searching. And what I found is that, ultimately, I cannot be true to myself without at least doing my best to live in accord with my religion.
I understand about your nephew; I'm out to my family and my closest friends. The atmosphere I was in before made more general coming out difficult, but now that I'm in a more open place I'm not as guarded. But yes, I think hiding your sexuality is no good for you, and no good for your relation with the people form whom you hide it.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
04-11-2010, 06:48 AM | #534 | ||||
Elf Lord
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IIRC this was one of the main sources of the estrangement of Tolkien and Lewis, when Lewis declared he was going to enter a marriage of convenience with Joy Gresham simply to get her a residence visa for the UK. Lewis argued that since Christians recognised non-Christian marriages as legitimate, his marriage in a civil registry should be considered okay too, while Tolkien argued believers were held to a higher standard. Adding a twist was that Lewis was already falling in love with Gresham at the time; however as she was a divorcee, that still would have ruled it out for Tolkien as a Catholic; the CofE's position at that time was that divorced people could not remarry in a Christian ceremony, but, being the CofE of course, nothing is set in stone. Quote:
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Or when anti-miscegnation laws were passed in various American states, and people found that the definition of "marriage" had been changed to invalidate what had formerly been inclyded under the definition; or "Loving vs. Virginia" when the Supreme Court once again altered the meaning of the word 'marriage' without destroying the language. Or since you're currently living in the Belly of the Beast as far as gay marriage goes, ask some of my fellow citizens whether they understand the meaning of the word. I think you'll find that they are quite able to stretch the word to encompass two people of the same sex without being lost in a post-modernist fog of endless differance. Quote:
When you file a joint tax statement, the clerk doesn't ask you whether you're capable of, or intend to have, children. Nope, all non-theological arguments collapse in a welter of their own contradictions.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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04-11-2010, 06:56 AM | #535 |
Elf Lord
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Here's a list of US federal government legal rights granted to people through marriage. Those pertaining to natural children I have put in bold; all the rest applies to all married people:
Right to benefits while married: employment assistance and transitional services for spouses of members being separated from military service; continued commissary privileges per diem payment to spouse for federal civil service employees when relocating Indian Health Service care for spouses of Native Americans (in some circumstances) sponsor husband/wife for immigration benefits Larger benefits under some programs if married, including: veteran's disability Supplemental Security Income disability payments for federal employees medicaid property tax exemption for homes of totally disabled veterans income tax deductions, credits, rates exemption, and estimates wages of an employee working for one's spouse are exempt from federal unemployment tax[3] Joint and family-related rights: joint filing of bankruptcy permitted joint parenting rights, such as access to children's school records family visitation rights for the spouse and non-biological children, such as to visit a spouse in a hospital or prison next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions or filing wrongful death claims custodial rights to children, shared property, child support, and alimony after divorce domestic violence intervention access to "family only" services, such as reduced rate memberships to clubs & organizations or residency in certain neighborhoods Preferential hiring for spouses of veterans in government jobs Tax-free transfer of property between spouses (including on death) and exemption from "due-on-sale" clauses. Special consideration to spouses of citizens and resident aliens Threats against spouses of various federal employees is a federal crime Right to continue living on land purchased from spouse by National Park Service when easement granted to spouse Court notice of probate proceedings Domestic violence protection orders Existing homestead lease continuation of rights Regulation of condominium sales to owner-occupants exemption Funeral and bereavement leave Joint adoption and foster care Joint tax filing Insurance licenses, coverage, eligibility, and benefits organization of mutual benefits society Legal status with stepchildren Making spousal medical decisions Spousal non-resident tuition deferential waiver Permission to make funeral arrangements for a deceased spouse, including burial or cremation Right of survivorship of custodial trust Right to change surname upon marriage Right to enter into prenuptial agreement Right to inheritance of property Spousal privilege in court cases (the marital confidences privilege and the spousal testimonial privilege) For those divorced or widowed, the right to many of ex- or late spouse's benefits, including: Social Security pension veteran's pensions, indemnity compensation for service-connected deaths, medical care, and nursing home care, right to burial in veterans' cemeteries, educational assistance, and housing survivor benefits for federal employees survivor benefits for spouses of longshoremen, harbor workers, railroad workers additional benefits to spouses of coal miners who die of black lung disease $100,000 to spouse of any public safety officer killed in the line of duty continuation of employer-sponsored health benefits renewal and termination rights to spouse's copyrights on death of spouse continued water rights of spouse in some circumstances payment of wages and workers compensation benefits after worker death making, revoking, and objecting to post-mortem anatomical gifts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
04-11-2010, 11:55 AM | #536 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I was going to say that I will reply in a couple of days when I have finished my final papers for the semester, but when I read this:
I decided that there is no point in responding, if this is taken up as a demonstrated principle. Arguments which go nowhere are worthless, and since this one promises to go nowhere, I'm not really interested in continuing. You think I'm being irrational (or at least non-rational), I think you're collapsing proper differentiations, and neither of us is going to change our mind.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 04-11-2010 at 03:10 PM. |
04-12-2010, 06:15 AM | #537 |
Elf Lord
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That's a shame, I was enjoying that.
That's an instructive list, GM. It is relevant to UK politics right now. Our next prime minister has to fetishise traditional marriage, to appease his conservative base. Yet he also wants the votes of people who aren't prejudiced against gays. Tricky one! Especially since the country hasn't degenerated into Sodom and Gomorrah as a result of legalising civil partnerships between gays (and between non-gays, for that matter). Here he is being a clueless eedjit in an interview with Gay Times: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBlDfp85gP8 |
04-12-2010, 02:53 PM | #538 |
the Shrike
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That was painful.
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04-13-2010, 04:12 AM | #539 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
So, modified to read "Nope, non-theological arguments based on the necessity of the possibility of fertility in marriage collapse in a welter of their own contradictions." Personal example- when my 85-year-old grandfather remarried his 83-year-old childhood sweetheart 12 years after my grandmother's death, the possibility of them being able to conceive was not what most people, anyway, would say that the wedding was about. Joy, love, and companionship, yes- all equally as applicable to gays as to a woman who has had a hysterectomy. The exceptions granted for naturally infertile heterosexuals simply blow a hole in any logical base for this argument. As to your other arguments, they are not irrational, just wrong- IMHO, of course.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 04-13-2010 at 04:15 AM. |
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04-15-2010, 02:10 PM | #540 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I'm actually sort of serious. When the topic was just re-opened, I was pretty hesitant about getting into it. Simply put, we've all run round this track so many times in the past that I don't really see the point to continuing to do so. I think the positions that people take on charged issues like this are rarely determined by rational argument as I alluded to before, but instead by a resonance of a certain position in their minds. As such, rational argument is very rarely sufficient to change someone's mind on such an issue, as I think the history of these discussions has demonstrated. If neither of us is going to change our mind, then it seems to me that it degenerates to argument for the sake of argument; that line you wrote just served to jog my own memory about this.
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