02-11-2009, 04:40 AM | #61 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Well, Alcuin, Re: Sauron's butt I was not entirely serious.
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Note only that the passage about Narmakil and the WK was soon rewritten : Quote:
As for Argeleb I, perhaps he should be taken off the WK's list of victims: Quote:
His son Arveleg, however, is a neat case. Last edited by Gordis : 02-11-2009 at 04:51 AM. |
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02-11-2009, 06:13 AM | #62 | ||
Salt Miner
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That’s a relief.
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02-11-2009, 03:25 PM | #63 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Oh, he was responsible all right, but he couldn't have slain Argeleb by his own hand.
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02-11-2009, 03:30 PM | #64 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I believe that we have established to everyone's satisfaction that the Nazgul lacked courage. How not? Courage is a moral virtue, and of that they had none, nor did Sauron, their Master. The W-K's strike at Frodo with the Morgul-knife was obviously a mere stab at random, and we all know that "the hasty stroke goes oft astray." They then ran away from Aragorn and the Ring-bearer, hoping against hope that they had mortally wounded the latter. When it became obvious that Frodo's wound was not immediately mortal, (though it would have been, without Elrond's intervention) they tried to rush the company. I am not sure what they thought they were going to do except maybe trample them with the black horses, but it was enough to make Aragorn fly from them, and I don't blame him.
*resists impulse to make bad joke about the Black Cheek*
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
02-11-2009, 04:33 PM | #65 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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There is suicidal courage displayed by Fingolfin, Earnur and Eowyn There is courage of those pitted against a wall and choosing a glorious death to flight or dying to protect others: Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Gandalf against Balrogs, Hurin against Morgoth, Haradrim and Easterlings dying but not surrendering at the Pelennor. There is calculated, reasonable courage like Aragorn's (the guy didn't try to fight a balrog or knock on the gates of Barad-Dur, did he?), or Sauron's (going out to meet Huan, setting shop in the enemy Eregion, going as prisoner to Numenor, laughing from the Temple roof at the lightnings striking around him, later confronting the lords of the Alliance), or Witch-King's (who was ready to fight Earnur but not Glorfindel, to fight Gandalf when it was unavoidable, and to confront the wielder of the One Ring armed with a Barrow blade). And there is cowardice, which is not the same as refusing to fight a much stronger opponent. The latter is wisdom and I assure you Earnur would have done much better staying at home and finding a wife, than going to Minas Morgul. Quote:
Why "against hope"? In all the previous cases a Morgul wound had been lethal and it only took a few days to overcome a strong man. |
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02-11-2009, 04:57 PM | #66 | |
Elven Warrior
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02-11-2009, 05:12 PM | #67 |
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The Morgul-knife (in the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS Tolkien calls it “Mordor-knife”) was not meant to kill its victims immediately. It reduced them to wraiths under the control of the Nazgûl. They were terrible weapons: a person struck by such a weapon faced a horrific fate unless he could find someone who could quickly and completely remove all the fragments of the blade. That’s how long the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS says men “marked” with these weapons lasted before succumbing to its effects.
For the record, Boromir I, Ruling Steward of Gondor 2477–2489, died youngest of all the Ruling Stewards because he was struck by a Morgul-knife in war with Minas Morgul in Ithilien in 2475. Note that not only was he cured, but the Council of Gondor still trusted him to be Ruling Steward; however, “he became shrunken with pain and died”. But the fact that he lived at all indicates that he must immediately have received the very best treatment available in Minas Tirith. Without proper treatment, victims and their friends and families faced a horrible choice. In one or two days, the person would become a wraith. Or perhaps he could commit suicide, or his friends or family could kill him. Lovely choices for Faithful Dúnedain. Killing immediately with a Morgul-knife is wasting the weapon. Wound, don’t kill is the rule. -|- In regards to Sauron chasing the Ring himself, my comments are only semi-directed at you, Gordis and CAB. This idea pops up from time to time, but it quickly falls apart under examination. You did both seem to be half in jest. I seem to have be a little short in appreciating irony. No offense intended, and none taken, I hope. |
02-11-2009, 05:20 PM | #68 |
Elven Warrior
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Well, I am not ready to debate the meaning of courage, but I don't see the Nazgul as cowards. They didn't love Sauron. He trapped them (horribly). They almost certainly hated him as much as is humanly (wraith-lly?) possible. Why would their refusal to lay down their lives for someone like Sauron make them cowards? They weren't protecting anyone. The was no "great cause" they were fighting for. I have a tough time seeing cowardice in such a situation.
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02-11-2009, 05:25 PM | #69 | |||
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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02-11-2009, 05:50 PM | #70 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Not at all. My posts just aren't as clear as I would like. What really kills me is that we have several members on this site for whom English is a second (or third, etc.) language, yet they are able to use it better than I (a native speaker) do. Very annoying. |
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02-11-2009, 06:18 PM | #71 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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I believe that if a Morgul-kinfe is stabbed right through the heart the victim is KILLED immediately: the body becomes useless and the soul departs to Mandos. There will be no wraith left. A direct hit in the heart by a pointed metal object leads to immediate death. Yet, it is not the objective - the objective is to turn the victim into a wraith - and that doesn't seem to be an instant event, but a slow process. Likely the splinter has to be inserted somewhere near the heart and travel to it on its own, piercing it gently, like a surgical needle, and inserting the poison and evil spells into the blood flow. That must be the meaning of :"They was trying to pierce your heart with a Morgul knife that remains in the wound." Wound, not Kill, as Alcuin says. Quote:
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02-11-2009, 06:41 PM | #72 | |
Elven Warrior
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02-11-2009, 07:03 PM | #73 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I guess the nazgul were worried that the experienced Ringbearer claims the Ring and starts to give orders. Then the matter would come to a standstill, as described in #246, and Sauron's direct intervention would be needed. That's why they came straight for Frodo ignoring the others. Note, CAB, I do think that the WK had missed when hitting Frodo's shoulder instead of his chest. But still I don't think he wanted to hit directly the heart. |
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02-12-2009, 09:52 AM | #74 |
Elf Lord
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On your last point, Gordis, I think that's a minor distinction anyway. Had WiKi missed in the other direction and killed Frodo by mistake, I don't think he'd have been all that heartbroken, even though the goal was more likely capture. That he missed and struck only the shoulder gave Frodo just enough time, barely, to reach Rivendell and its Elvish surgeons.
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02-12-2009, 03:25 PM | #75 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Um, not true, unless the missle or blade disrupts the Purkinje system. If untreated, a large enough heart wound to cause leakage, but not enough to disrupt its motions, causes death by hemopericardium, the collection of blood in the unexpandable sac that surround the heart and not allowing blood to enter the heart.. I, myself, have treated stab wounds to the heart that were nonfatal by draining the pericardium, and stuck large-bore needles into the heart to inject epinephrine without killing the patient. I have assisted in two surgeries where missle weapons were removed from the heart, and both patients lived. I think that was the object of the breakable tip of the Morgul-knife, to take control of the individual. Can't you take Gandalf's word for it? Granted, he is not infallible, but I suspect his knowlege, here is based on direct observation.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. Last edited by Attalus : 02-12-2009 at 03:26 PM. |
02-12-2009, 11:13 PM | #76 |
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One could start a thread based on that comment. (juuust a joke. everybody stay calm.)
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons Last edited by Nautipus : 02-12-2009 at 11:22 PM. |
02-13-2009, 03:10 PM | #77 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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We also say "Cold steel is the best deal."
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
02-14-2009, 12:46 PM | #78 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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02-14-2009, 04:59 PM | #79 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Certainly in the late nineteenth century. Medievally, no, though Elrond's Operation would not have been done in the Middle Ages, either.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
02-14-2009, 05:03 PM | #80 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Thanks, it is very interesting.
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