11-14-2008, 05:57 AM | #461 | |||
Deus Ex Machina
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I'll concede concerning the church on all but one point, and to counter your argument I will have to lean away from the believer's view point that I've been arguing from.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi Last edited by Willow Oran : 11-14-2008 at 06:01 AM. |
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11-14-2008, 10:51 AM | #462 |
Elf Lord
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Willow Oran, you do of course extend your logic to all human endeavors? That because of human fallibility there can be no knowledge of ........ whatever? Because exactly the same arguments are made in the attempted salvage of communism, socialism, fascism, scientism and every man-made construct.
The Church's claims about general revelation and special revelation have to be taken into account. You do not have to believe them, but you do have to take them into account. And, because of human fallibility, true knowledge of God would have to come to us as a revelation since we could not arrive at it reliably ourselves per your argument. Or would you plead a special case for the Church and the relation of the morality of leaders as opposed to human morality amongst say Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Pinochet, etc...........
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-14-2008, 02:31 PM | #463 | |
Elf Lord
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You make a good point. People who speak truth, yet are themselves great sinners, are less likely to be believed. It isn't a coincidence that the Reformation started shortly after the death of Pope Alexander VI, one who I believe was the wickedest pope we've ever had. Most Catholics remained faithful to the Church, even though many were fully conscious of their pope's wickedness. The pope who succeeded Alexander VI, Pope Leo X, actually said that Alexander VI was burning in Hell. So while you're right that many will spurn a wicked man, even if he presents a true message, it's also apparent that many will remain faithful to the true message even when it comes through an evil man. Besides, even if no one listened to the evil man God spoke through, that doesn't mean God lacks the capacity to speak. It simply means they lack the capacity to hear Him fully. Faithful Catholics at the time of the Reformation held to the truth passed on to them that God speaks through the Pope and the Pope's official word is God's official word. God doesn't promise moral purity to the pope, though. If Catholics fail to believe the Pope's infallible words, even when they see very correctly that the Pope is morally bankrupt, this is a failure on their part to believe in God's promise regarding the Papacy (Matthew 16:18-19). For this reason, many Catholics remained faithful, in spite of the Reformation's temptations. It is also worthwhile to note that Alexander VI, in spite of his authority as pope, never tried to make an infallible declaration that justified his blatant disregard for Christian virtue (his murders, fornications and greed). He preached God's truth and practiced Satan's perversion. In fact, none of the bad popes have proclaimed, in their official capacity as pope, to be God's doctrine what is in fact a lie. God has always been willing to speak through people participating in terrible sin. Balaam, Caiaphas (these I noted before), Pilate (John 19:19-22), and one of the centurions who participated in putting Him to death (Mark 15:39) are good examples of this. I bet I could keep expanding the list. Because of the weakness of humanity, you're right that people will sometimes reject that which is glorious and true, because they despise the messenger. This is a problem with the hearing of many, especially those that do not cling to the promises of Jesus. It is not a problem with God's capacity to speak through anyone or anything He wants.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-14-2008, 03:42 PM | #464 |
Deus Ex Machina
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Speaking of paganism... schoolwork requires that I focus on the study of pre-christian matters now. Thanks for a good discussion guys.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
11-15-2008, 07:59 PM | #465 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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11-16-2008, 12:37 AM | #466 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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GW: You got me to thinking things I haven't thought in many years (when one once settles these questions for oneself, the route of arriving at the answers can easily lie forgotten for a long while).
Regarding the nature of evil: some view it as a polar opposite of good - of the competitor, and rival and enemy of good. But perhaps the best definition I have heard of evil is that it is 'corrupted good'. That definition covers the ground that evil walks (some things less corrupted, some more so) - and also makes it easier, perhaps, to conceive of a God without evil (again, inasmuch as we can hope to understand God).
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11-16-2008, 01:48 PM | #467 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Yes, evil is essentially just mixing up priorities on which goods are greater. Something is evil because it has the wrong good in mind. Thinking of evil in this way, it seems like evil in fact is non-being. That which we call evil is not actually something, not some positive existence, but simply the lack of a good which ought to be there.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
11-16-2008, 04:55 PM | #468 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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okay..
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...I get it now, you are not talking about the gospel, you are just giving what you feel/think is the definition of evil. That is good that you are not talking about the bible because it specifically states that what you are doing (I must sound like a broken record) is evil. The ultimate and concise definition of evil according to the word of god, is exactly that, your own thoughts.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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11-18-2008, 05:04 PM | #469 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Sorry, where does the Bible say that my thoughts are the ultimate definition of evil?
And what, pray tell, are you objecting to, exactly? Philosophy? The statement that there is no evil in God?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
11-18-2008, 06:31 PM | #470 | |||
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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You can choose not to believe gods words but then you can't say your a christian, can you? Psalm 50:17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee. Proverbs 9:8-9 8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. 9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning. Proverbs 5:11-13 11 And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed, 12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof; 13 And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me! Matthew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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11-18-2008, 10:48 PM | #471 | |
Elf Lord
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I might add that, as it happens, none of the passages you referred to says our thoughts are the source of all evil. They say that our thoughts can lead to error and show that our thoughts can be evil, but they do not say our thoughts are the source of all evil. Your philosophy on this is non-biblical. He can choose not to believe your interpretation of God's words, and still say he's a Christian.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-19-2008, 01:03 AM | #472 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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What?
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18 For I know that in me dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. That was my word? Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. That too right? Luke 18:18-19 18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. This too? Come on, come on... Where are my words, where is my interpretation in that? I guess those scriptures are not saying, what they are saying Lief, so why don't you tell me what they are saying so I can be edified.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Last edited by Nurvingiel : 11-19-2008 at 01:12 AM. Reason: Sarcastic to the point of flame-baiting; overly-sarcastic parts were removed. |
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11-19-2008, 06:51 AM | #473 | |||
Elf Lord
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On the other hand, God's way can sometimes seem right unto a man, and that way does not lead to death. That is from the Spirit. If the intellect of a man itself is a bad thing, God would not have made him one. I believe the verse is referring to the false wisdom of the sinful nature. Quote:
All over it, IMHO. You need to realize that your interpreting abilities are not infallible.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-19-2008 at 06:57 AM. |
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11-19-2008, 11:55 AM | #474 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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Well, I will leave it at that, I think we both have said enough on that particular topic to allow others to learn some from it. Besides what you said below disturbs me and I need to address it.
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Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Two seperate names for two seperate beings: Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. That last was to the point, if they both were one and the same then the one would know what the other does but it is clear that it is not the case. Just as with the angels, so too with the son; well, as far as the day of judgment is concerned. Now you can better understand what was presented before: Luke 18:18-19 18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. I never said that I was infallible and that was what the point of the last debate on the weakness of flesh; I don't rely on "intellect" but on the word to guide me.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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11-19-2008, 06:19 PM | #475 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Myself, I am not one of them. Why do you say that I don't believe God's word?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Nurvingiel : 11-19-2008 at 11:57 PM. Reason: Removed personal attack. |
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11-19-2008, 06:34 PM | #476 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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John 1: 1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 8:58-59 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. 28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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11-19-2008, 07:44 PM | #477 | |||
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
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*sigh*
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Proverbs 9:8-9 8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. 9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning. Quote:
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Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment: Hey, you set yourself up for that one. A lot of people jump off bridges too. Back at you
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Last edited by The Telcontarion : 11-20-2008 at 09:27 AM. Reason: Removed personal attacks and response to deleted text. |
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11-19-2008, 08:11 PM | #478 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
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God knew us before the world was made too, are we gods then...
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He was, before Abraham, he is, the alpha and omega. He knew and chose the elect of us before the world was also: Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Last edited by The Telcontarion : 11-20-2008 at 09:32 AM. |
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11-19-2008, 08:37 PM | #479 |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
Join Date: Jun 2006
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The story of the Dúnedain in middle - earth is based on the history of Israel
We all know Tolkien was heavily influenced by christianity. Now look at the simularities.
1. Israel was split into two kingdoms, the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah - So was the Dúnedain in ME 2. The north kingdom, kingdom of Israel was larger - So was Arnor 3. The Kingdom of Israel was eventually over run and scattered - So was Arnor 4. Kingdom of Judah remained - So did Gondor 5. Eldarion's birth united the royal half elvin lines - The birth of Jesus united the two royal lines of king David. I have been meaning to bring this up but as you can see I have been busy.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
11-20-2008, 01:30 PM | #480 | |||||
Elf Lord
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On the other hand, when the Jews said, "You, though only a human being, are making yourself God," Jesus did not object to their claim. Instead, He very reasonably pointed out that if people were called "gods" because of having received the word, they could not reasonably object to Him calling Himself God's Son when He was sanctified and sent into the world (John 10:33-36). The "divinity" Jesus claimed was very different from the kind that involves simply receiving the word of God. He said, "The Father and I are one" (John 10:30). A radically different claim. The scriptures asserting Jesus' divinity are many and clear. The verses calling men "gods" are one -- at most two -- from Psalms, and that's it in the whole Bible. And Jesus explains that they are only called that because of having received the word of God. There are, on the other hand, a multitude of verses referring explicitly to Jesus' divinity, and to His perfect unity with the Father, while there is no verse at all that says Jesus is not divine. Here are some more relevant passages about Jesus, in addition to the numerous and clear verses Gwaimir brought up: Quote:
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It is also impossible to deny this scriptural belief and be a Christian. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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