07-21-2008, 04:39 PM | #1 |
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Who Really Killed the Witch King in ROTK??
Who Really Killed the Witch King?
There is much debate about who really killed the Witch King. Some say Merry killed him and Éowyn helped, and others say Merry helped and Éowyn actually killed him. I think that neither are true, Merry and Éowyn both killed him, according to the book and the movie, The Return of the King. In ROTK (the book), Éowyn has disguised herself as a man to fight in the war. Théoden, King of Rohan and Éowyn's uncle, tried to kill the Witch King but his horse was pierced with a black arrow and Théoden was pinned under him and was badly injured. Éowyn, still disguised, ran to his aid. She told the King of the Nazĝul to leave him alone, and the Witch King warned her that she will die. She ignores that and says that she will hinder him anyway. He says: “Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man mat hinder me!” Then she takes off her helmet (this is my favorite part!) and says that she is no man, but Éowyn, the Lady of Rohan! The Witch King tries to kill her, but only succeeds in hurting her. But Merry runs to her aid and stabs him in the back of the knee, giving Éowyn enough time to get up with all her remaining strength, and kill the Ringwraith. She almost died, if it were not for Aragorn's healing touch and Merry's stabbing the King. The movie has several differences than. Merry knows that it was Éowyn, Éowyn talks to Théoden (in the book, it was Merry), and the wording is a bit different. But the end result is the same, that Éowyn killed the Witch King but not without a of of help. She might not have been able to if it were not for Merry stabbing the Nazĝul . So in conclusion, both texts, movie or book, whichever you prefer, still says that Éowyn killed the King of the Ringwraiths. But not without some big help from Merry, of course. So I think that both of them did, it. Neither one would have been able to do what they did without each other. |
07-21-2008, 06:57 PM | #2 |
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There shouldn't be any debate. A blow to the back of the knee is clearly not going to do any great damage.
Anyway, weren't hobbits a strain of the race of Men? Which would make Merry a man, and therefore ineligible.
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07-21-2008, 09:21 PM | #3 | ||
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with someone who, by then, he knew personally and not have any clue who it was. Quote:
Excellent point (and, I believe, definitive).
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07-21-2008, 09:31 PM | #4 | ||
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07-22-2008, 12:50 AM | #5 | ||||
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Oh, an oldie but goodie!
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In any case, the Witch-king apparently had sinew, either ligaments or tendons, and undead flesh, so I cast my vote for “unseen body in the shadow world,” not an incorporeal being (like the ghosts of Dunharrow). He could wear clothes, a crown, and wield both sword and mace to deadly effect: he was a man, but a man trapped in the necromantic enchantment of his fiendish master, Sauron. The nefarious effect of the Rings was to prolong or stretch one’s life, as Bilbo described to Gandalf in “A Long-expected Party”: Quote:
So here’s my position, spelled out for clean attack and dissection for any who care to sharpen their own long knives: Barrow-blade, Morgul-knife, or rusty dagger:
-0- Isn’t this the second-most thoroughly-debated topic on Tolkien forums after, “Did the Balrog have wings?” And is there any reason we cannot gleefully rehash it all over again? -0- Oh, phoo! Here come the orcs to drag me back to the salt mines… Last edited by Alcuin : 07-22-2008 at 01:04 AM. |
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07-22-2008, 06:34 AM | #6 |
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I know... we'll start a petition! A petition that the Orcs would release Alcuin fom the salt mines! Surely they'll listen to reason... and respond to this humanitarian request.
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07-22-2008, 08:18 AM | #7 |
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We'll have to boycott salt. You can undermine (groan at pun) their business model first by reducing demand for their product.
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07-22-2008, 08:21 AM | #8 |
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Good job, Alcuin.
Here's a question: Suppose Eowyn passes out as Merry slices WiKi's ligaments. What happens to the WiKi then, without Eowyn delivering the final blow? My guess (without any research at this point) is that he's then no different from any other very old soldier of Mordor with a jacked-up leg, limping around the battlefield, trying not to get himself killed before wasting away of old age. Any other ideas? I think it is important to remember that the prophecy about who would kill him is just that: a prophecy. It is not a statement of magical, medical, or scientific fact based on a physical evaluation of WiKi's being. It is a statement of who would kill him, not of who could kill him. And prophecies don't all come true...
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07-22-2008, 12:11 PM | #9 | ||
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However, there had to be other spells on the nazgul: those that resulted in semi-invulnerability of the wraiths. (You can't slay them with arrows or drown them and all blades perish that pierce them - without doing much harm). I think it was that spell that was broken. I guess, had only Merry struck him, the WK would have been incapacitated much like any mortal man with the same injury, maybe worse - paralyzed. But there were at least 5-6 of the nazgul present on the battlefield. He could have called a buddy on a Fell Beast to carry him to Dr. Sauron's best hospital. And now a little research on the matter. Letter # 210. From a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman [Not dated; June 1958] (Tolkien's comments on the film 'treatment' of The Lord of the Rings.) Quote:
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07-22-2008, 12:38 PM | #10 | ||
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You can't speak or sniff without functional lungs, without breathing. Another matter that they didn't NEED to breathe for survival (most likely) - that's why Gandalf was so confident NOT to find a drowned nazgul in the Bruinen. And we know the nazgul didn't NEED to eat: Quote:
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07-22-2008, 03:18 PM | #11 | |
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07-22-2008, 03:46 PM | #12 | |
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He isn't wearing the Ring. Therefore, its grasp on him is to some extent tenuous.
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07-22-2008, 11:09 PM | #13 |
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07-23-2008, 03:54 AM | #14 | |||||
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Ahh, Alcuin, I never had time to answer to your first post... I am working hard myself in the salt mines... But I mostly agree with you.
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OK, then in your first post, Alcuin, you advance the idea that the Barrow blade moves the nazgul back into the World of living, making him vulnerable to other weapons. I agree that the Barrow blade breaks Sauron's "invulnerability" spell: Quote:
But I am not sure I agree with this: Quote:
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I disagree with DPR that the "invulnerability" spell is the same Ring-spell that makes a former Man an invisible immortal wraith. I think it was something else added by Sauron, maybe back in the Second Age. The Nine Rings made the nazgul immortal, like elves, but as Elves they could be killed by ordinary means. Likely Sauron tried to remedy to that. Oh if I had more time to discuss this nice oldie... |
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07-23-2008, 06:43 AM | #15 |
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Thank you everyone for your comments!!! i appreciate them!!
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07-23-2008, 07:34 AM | #16 | |
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07-23-2008, 08:49 AM | #17 |
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Only inferred.
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07-23-2008, 11:00 AM | #18 |
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Hmm. It is my belief that there is/was just one spell on WiKi, the Ring-induced one, and the barrow-blade broke it. I have no textual support for this either, but the simplest answer is usually the best, IMO.
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07-23-2008, 11:21 AM | #19 | |||||
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Of course, there is that citation of Aragorn: “all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.” That indicates that the Witch-king had been pierced – wounded – before, but either the wounds were without effect, or he healed (presumably necromantically, since normal healing would not likely be possible), or he was simply invulnerable (in which case Aragorn was either mistaken, speaking poetically, or I misunderstand Tolkien’s text). Clearly, though, something filled the clothing the Witch-king wore, and that something was his physical body, albeit transferred into the shadow-world. Gandalf alluded to their situation in his conversation with Frodo after the hobbit awoke in Rivendell: Quote:
There is a passage in Morgoth’s Ring, “Aman and Mortal Men”, pp 429-430, explaining that any Mortal who entered Aman or Valinor did not lose his Mortality, as Sauron convinced Ar-Pharazôn, but the natural balance between the hröa (body) and fëa (soul) would be upset. Once in Valinor, it was believed the fëa of a Mortal would seek to leave the hröa, and that if it were unable to do this, the fëa would go mad; while if the fëa departed, the hröa would act without guidance, effectively becoming a monster. Sauron’s necromancy seems to me to have duplicated this trap for Mortals through the Rings in Middle-earth. Quote:
Oh… is that an undead horse? Where did they put a Ring on that thing… Ohh... |
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07-23-2008, 11:44 AM | #20 |
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"Are you kidding? We intend to beat this horse to death!
Oh… is that an undead horse? Where did they put a Ring on that thing… Ohh.." thanks a lot, Alcuin! Very funny!! |
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