06-28-2008, 07:13 AM | #841 |
Elf Lady
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Eärniel, do you know of 'Staphorst', 'Urk', 'Spakenburg', 'Putten' or anything about the Dutch Biblebelt?
It refers to the geographical location of a trail of High Protestant Reformed (Gereformeerd of Hervormd) villages, very strict. They do not vaccinate their kids because that is considered to be interfering with Gods will. Here it's only the secluded, strict "zwarte kousen" churches that are going that far. They recently made a documentary on Staphorst. If you want I can send you the link to the trailer (which is in Dutch only, sorry)
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06-28-2008, 07:26 AM | #842 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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No, to be honest I didn't even know you had a bible-belt of your own. (You learn something everyday...)
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06-28-2008, 07:33 AM | #843 |
Elf Lady
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(deleted)
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... Last edited by Mari : 06-28-2008 at 08:52 AM. |
06-28-2008, 09:05 AM | #844 |
Elf Lord
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Okay, I had 22 posts copied for multi-quote reply.
As Inigo Montoya says, 'No. To sum up." I agree with Earniel that the debate runs to Christianity because Christians of a certain type are more dedicated to debating it. People who don't agree with the loud but limited POV just hang out on other threads. On the occasions that other religions have come in (and even this week there have been a few) the complete lack of understanding tends to run down the conversation fairly quickly. However, Christianity also lends itself to being highly debatable. It has a long and colorful history, an interesting premise, and dedicated adherents. And it's very influential, so many people have encountered its reach, one way or another. For a detailed discussion of Baha.u.llah or the Ruchira Avatar Adi Di Samraj we might need to look to another location.
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06-28-2008, 01:47 PM | #845 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
The Gospel of Thomas, specifically, the only one you mention by name, was excluded for a few reasons. One was that it openly opposed the church tradition (passed on from the disciples) about the character of Jesus. Jesus was loving and accepting toward women, treating them with unusual honor and dignity for his time. However, in the Gospel of Thomas, when Peter asks him about his mother, Jesus says that she must be transformed into a man before she can enter heaven. The Gospel of Thomas also includes pantheistic statements that clearly diverge from the teaching he passed on to his disciples, and they to their successors (Apostolic Tradition). Gospels chosen had to show complete integrity of doctrine to the character and teachings of Jesus as revealed by the Early Church Fathers and apostles. The apostles themselves, being Jesus' closest friends, were in the best position of anyone to know what Jesus' beliefs were. The Early Church Fathers, their appointed successors, are also some of the most reliable. The fact that many of these men (all the apostles except John and many of the Early Church Fathers) died for their devotion shows how sincere they were. They are the most reliable sources by far about the character and teaching of Jesus. And it was based on their testimony about Jesus' teachings that the Gospel of Thomas and other such apocryphal works were excluded. Quote:
Those kinds of coincidences happen a lot a lot a lot for devout Christians when they pray. That's a reason why I'm more receptive to the story. Plus all the more inexplicable miracles: Yep! Though atheism really is completely irrational. Agnosticism, depending on its variety, makes a lot more sense. It isn't blind faith like atheism is. Quote:
The standard scholarly dating for the Gospels, "even in very liberal circles," according to Craig Blomberg (who, to cite some of his credentials, has a doctorate in New Testament from Aberdeen University in Scotland, was a professor of the New Testament at a highly respected Denver Seminary, was a senior research fellow at Tyndale House at Cambridge University in England, where he was part of an elite group of international scholars that produced a series of acclaimed works on Jesus, and is widely considered to be one of the country's foremost authorities on the gospels of Jesus), the Gospel of Mark was written in the 70's, Matthew and Luke in the 80's and John in the 90's. Craig Blomberg points out furthermore that the Gospels were written within the lifetimes of the people described in the stories. Many of the miracles also were described in the Gospels as very public events, so these accounts could easily have been attacked by the Pharisees or hostile eyewitnesses if there had been a plausible case against them. The Gospel writers had a great deal of motive to pass on very true accounts. You can't very well preach your story to a crowd of people if people in the crowd might shout, "that's not true! We were there!" You have to be as reliable to the facts as you can be if you're going to argue with eyewitnesses. There were a lot of eyewitnesses (Christian and Non-Christian) still alive at the time the Gospels were written and accepted in the Church. Here's another point (to quote again from Craig Blomberg): Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-28-2008 at 01:48 PM. Reason: Little typo |
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06-28-2008, 02:05 PM | #846 |
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There's more historical evidence for Christ's existence than for Socrates and Alexander the Great.
Now why doesn't anyone doubt their existence? Not as uncomfy, that's why.
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06-28-2008, 02:12 PM | #847 | |||
Elf Lord
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However, I agree with you that the parallels between the story of Jesus and other religious stories are not coincidence. I see them as God's voice speaking to all humanity about what is, what was, and what is coming. There's also a certain amount of common human memory at work, IMO, because of the common descent of humanity from Noah, who is a Christ-figure. One can argue other theories, if one wants, such as the psychological, archetype explanations, or other such. However, the major points of the story of Jesus, by the best historical dating methods available, can be dated to within a few years of his death. That makes it the teaching of the Church within the lifespans of the original disciples, just a few years after Jesus' death. It isn't enough time for legendary material to creep into the accounts. Quote:
"The Case for Christ," pp. 75-76: After earning a bachelor's degree in Hebrew and Hellenistics, Yamauchi received master's and doctoral degrees in Mediterranean studies from Brandeis University. He has been awarded eight fellowships, from the Rutgers Research Council, National Endowment for the Humanities, the American Philosophical Society, and others. He has studied twenty-two languages, including Arabic, Chinese, Egyptian, Russian, Syriac, Ugaritic, and even Commanche. He has delivered seventy-one papers before learned societies; lectured at more than one hundred seminaries, universities and colleges, including Yale, Princeton and Cornell; served as chairman and then president of the Institute for Biblical Research and president of the Conference on Faith and History; and published eighty articles in thirty-seven scholarly journals. Here's how he summarizes the available evidence about Jesus from corroborating, early non-Christian sources: Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-28-2008, 02:18 PM | #848 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Here's a table of ancient documents, showing historical reliability: http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm It's very cool to see that kind of comparison .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-28-2008, 02:33 PM | #849 | |
Elf Lord
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Sirach 38 says, "Hold the physician in honor, for he is essential to you, and God it was who established his profession. From God the doctor has his wisdom, and the king provides for his sustenance . . . God makes the earth yield healing herbs which the prudent man should not neglect; was not the water sweetened by a twig that men might learn his power? He endows men with the knowledge to glory in his mighty works, through which the doctor eases pain and the druggist prepares his medicines; thus God's creative work continues without cease in its efficacy on the surface of the earth." The praise of doctors in Sirach 38 continues for some time more after that; I just don't feel like quoting it all. But the Protestant Reformers removed Sirach from the canon of scriptures. There are references to healing through normal medical techniques in other parts of the Bible too, which the Protestants kept, but they're nowhere near so clear cut and decisive as Sirach 38. That's why some reject the use of doctors. Many Protestants think that God can heal through miracles or through doctors, and that he uses both. That's what I believe. But some Protestants reject this, thinking we should rely only on miracles. IMO, that's largely because they dropped the Book of Sirach and lost the chapter that in extremely explicit language praises the profession of doctors.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-28-2008, 03:31 PM | #850 | |
The Ñoldóran
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As for your interpretation of the Gnostic Gospels, it's the pantheist part that I like. I'm very much a pantheist. As for the rest, well, it all comes down to our opinions on the Catholic church and the decisions it made, which of course you agree with and others (such as myself) may not. But I'm not going to start bashing your church and your beliefs, so I think I'll just let that go for now.
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06-28-2008, 03:40 PM | #851 | ||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't think it comes down to our personal opinions about the decisions of the Catholic Church at all. It comes down to what the most reliable information about Jesus' beliefs is, from that early time period.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-28-2008 at 03:45 PM. |
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06-28-2008, 03:48 PM | #852 |
Elf Lord
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I know this is a double-post, but I can't help it.
http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm I love this link .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
06-28-2008, 03:49 PM | #853 |
Elven Warrior
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yep read it deep stuff
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06-28-2008, 03:52 PM | #854 |
Elf Lord
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It's my favorite book of all . I'm glad you read it- it's a superb read. I was recognizing the arguments from your post .
That book comes in handy in every debate on Christian apologetics I get involved in. If we debate using it enough, we start slowly to memorize facts and sources. Then it slowly becomes more and more possible to use that material in face-to-face debates, rather than only online. It's very good practice .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
06-28-2008, 03:54 PM | #855 | |
Elven Warrior
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i go to a baptist church but i do not give myself a denomination but if i had to give a name to what I concider myself it would be Jesus Freak
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
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06-28-2008, 04:00 PM | #856 |
Elf Lord
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Well, I'd say 'debate' is a generous term to apply to a restating of a favorite list of 'evidence' without actually listening to the other side, but I've no doubt it's good practice.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-28-2008, 04:02 PM | #857 | |
Elven Warrior
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there was once a man floating in the ocean. He prayed to God to save him before he drowned. A boat came by and asked if he'd like to get on and not drown and he replied "God will provide." Another boat came by asking him to get on and he still said "God will provide." A third boat came by and asked him and he still said God will provide. He drowned and went to Heaven. He went to God and asked "Why did you not save me?" God replied with "I sent you three boats! Do you expect me to do everything!" its funny but it has some truth to it
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
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06-28-2008, 04:03 PM | #858 |
Elf Lord
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This really is an absurd criticism. Everything I said was a direct response to the stated positions of other people. And everyone uses evidence from sources beyond themselves in debate.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
06-28-2008, 04:04 PM | #859 |
Elven Warrior
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yeah what is the other sides view?
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
06-28-2008, 04:05 PM | #860 | ||
The Ñoldóran
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I was born into the Quaker church. I don't know how much people know about it - but I find a lot of misconceptions about what it is. We're not Amish, we're not snake charmers...we're unique in a lot of ways, but not in any freaky cultish sense. I attended this church and liked it for the most part until I was about ten. I always found a great deal more spirituality and peace in the silence of our simple meeting house than I ever found in any fancy church. When I was about eleven, we started attending a Presbyterian church in my hometown, because it was simply too far to drive the two hours to my Quaker church every weekend. I became quickly disenchanted with this church. Listening to the ladies behind me bicker about the quality of the crackers during communion was a real turn-off, as was the fact that people seemed to go to this church more to be seen than to find any real spiritual connection. I guess the final thing that angered me was when they spent $80,000 to put in an elevator (they already had ways for handicapped people to get in) when there were people starving and in need in my hometown. It seemed they were much more concerned with their image than anything spiritual. So, being rather disgusted with them, I stopped going when I was about fourteen and began a process of soul-searching that has, so far, lasted about sixteen years. I quickly became disgusted with people in my school who told me that I was going to go to hell because I didn't go to church, or because I didn't believe that God was exactly the way they said s/he was. Lots of friends talked me into going to church with them in the attempt to 'save my soul.' I never really felt I needed saving. Even when I haven't had any serious religious identificaiton, I've always thought myself a moral person - and to be honest, I'm a lot more 'straight edge' than most 'straight edge' Christians. I'm squeaky clean. Really. When I went to college, I started studying religion. I studied Hinduism and Buddhism, Quakerism, Islam, as well as the philosophies of Aristotle and Plato, etc. Nothing seemed to fit. Nothing seemed to touch that part of me that was searching for answers. While most of my friends are atheist, I've never been able to go that route either. I've had too many experiences that make it impossible for me to not believe in something. I'd rather not go into them, because people tend to think I'm a bit freaky, but suffice it to say that they're not everyday experiences, or something that can be easily explained. When I was about twenty-five, I made friends with some people who were Wicca, and started studying that as well. While some aspects of it appealed to me (the pantheism, for one thing), other parts did not (the ritualism). I learned to do meditation (which is wonderful), and had some very intense spiritual experiences, one of which I'll share with you, even though it sounds a bit odd. Back in 2003, a friend of mine at the time was going through some really hard times and attempted suicide. I did a prayer circle for her, and went into some very deep meditation. At one point, I could have sworn that I was being cradled in my mother's arms - but not my real-life mother, who was at the time nearly a thousand miles away. It was a beautiful and spiritual experience which I have never felt again, and it was very real. Five years later, I would say that my beliefs are a combination of Quaker and Pagan. The Quaker influence removes a good dela of the ritualistic aspect from the paganism - I don't really feel the need for candles and pentagrams and all that - what is important is my direct connection to the Goddess that exists in the world around me. I very much hold to the pantheist belief that God is all and all is God. I also have a very strong set of moral values, although they're quite different than many Christian values. For instance, I do not believe that sex outside of marriage is in anyway immoral - to make it so is to turn one of the greatest gifts of our creator into something dirty, which I find, to be honest, rather sad. Well, this is already a really long explanation, and I feel that I've said a whole lot and absolutely nothing at the same time. I'd be glad to answer questions. It might be easier that way. Quote:
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