05-19-2008, 04:05 PM | #621 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Basically I've had a couple of hundred discussions about the failures and (lack of) merits of the current administration, and we've come to 2008, and the lack of humility it displays, the continued seriously poor performance it keeps exhibiting, tells me we've come to the breaking point. I.e., there have been so, so many instances where the current admininistration could set things only slightly right, and then it goes ahead, full steam, and blows it, yet again, and again, and again. The latest example being only a few days old, with Bush' childish ranting in Jerusalem. It's frankly pathetic.
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05-19-2008, 04:09 PM | #622 | |||||||||
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Look pal, you want to accuse me of being over-the-top because I used 'dumbocrats'? Take a look at your adjective throwing. "So so so many people in the know" is a lame reason for Bush's purported stupidity. (Imagine Rex, BJ, Gaffer being "in the know") Quote:
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Let's see, G.W. Bush has turned a national surplus into a mind-shattering deficit and practically ruined the U.S. Treasury. Never have as many American filed private bankrupcy as during Bush's reign. [/quote]
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05-19-2008, 04:20 PM | #623 | ||
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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05-19-2008, 04:21 PM | #624 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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That less than mediocre way of arguing won't get you anywhere.
For all the comments you make about my comments (we could go on forever couldn't we?), the bottom-line is that when we start discussing the issues you really are confronted with a serious credibility problem. So let's discuss Iraq since you call it a success. Let's discuss Afghanistan, as you also call it a success. Where do you want to begin? 2001? 2002? Present? *And we can also discuss that speech if you like*
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 05-19-2008 at 04:22 PM. |
05-19-2008, 04:22 PM | #625 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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Hey guys, just a reminder to please stay civil.
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05-19-2008, 04:29 PM | #626 | |
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2) Violence is down dramatically, Al Qaeda in Iraq is now miniscule. 3) The Maliki government has asserted itself as being capable to take on the Mahdi Army in Basra and has forced the hand of Mophead Al-Sadr. 4) the government is making progress in domestic matters I know none of you know this because good news from Iraq isn't news for the major media outlets on TV...but it has been acknowledged by the NYT and the WaPo among others. It's not over by yet, but we're definitely on top. Not tentatively like last year, but really in good shape.
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05-19-2008, 04:32 PM | #627 | |
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And of course I find it fascinating that you (And I quote you) "know none of you know this because good news from Iraq isn't news for the major media outlets on TV"
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05-19-2008, 05:02 PM | #628 | ||
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Let's talk Iraq. 1. First, two graphs that compare how much violence has gone down from 2006 to 2007: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archive.../01/019573.php Now, 2007 was still violent, and here we are in 2008 in even better shape not only in regards to violence levels, but in progress by the Iraqi government. 2. From the AP, this story about governmental workings in Iraq. Notice especially this bit: Quote:
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05-19-2008, 05:05 PM | #629 | ||
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05-19-2008, 05:10 PM | #630 | ||||
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Let's be clear about the question at hand.
You've been asked why you define Iraq as a success, and you've answered in 4 points. But the inescapable truth is that however much it would be alot 'nicer' to define success in new, 2008 terms, the reality is that the benchmarks for success were set not today, but in 2002 and 2003. That's the way the world works my friend. Quote:
The United States of America (along with mainly the UK) invaded Iraq in March 2003 on the pretense that Saddam Hussein's Baathist Iraq had WMD's and that he was likely to use them in the near future. In addition to this, the Bush Administration argued that the following were also goals: - Freeing the Iraqi people from a tyrant. - Spreading democracy in the Middle East. Thus, we have three important benchmarks to see success in Iraq. 1. The WMD's must be found, and must be shown to have been available for use. 2. The tyranny in Iraq must be removed. 3. Democracy must spread as an effect of the invasion of Iraq. Today in 2008 we see: 1. No WMD's, not today, not yesterday, not 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 years ago. 2. The people of Iraq were freed from Saddam Hussein, but as so many news stories from Iraq, and interviews with Iraqis in Iraq show, the tyranny of Saddam Hussein has been replaced with a multiple of new tyranny's. Tyranny of fear, Tyranny of Al Qaeda, Tyranny of suicide bombings, Tyranny of house-to-house inspections by U.S. forces, Tyranny of Freedom of Movement, Tyranny of Deprivation of the Basic Necessities of a Society: Lack of water, Lack of electricity, Lack of food, etc. 3. The last one is a no-brainer. Democracy is in the Middle East is as futile as ever. Lebanon, Palestine, Iran, Egypt, Syria, etc, etc. But let's return to your point. Quote:
That is truly remarkable. The Iraqi people had nothing in common with Al Qaeda before the invasion. None of the suicide bombers in 9/11 were Iraqis. The fundamentalist Islamic views of Al Qaeda and its violent ways of death were non-existant in Iraq, and then 5 years on after the invasion, you are characterizing it as a success that they are turning away from it. Point 2: Quote:
Also please identify an acceptable level of Al Qaeda activity in Iraq. Point 3: Quote:
So here we have a governmental force and a non-governmental force fighting in a country where there is a 3rd force, the occupiers. This is happening 5 years after all major combat operations are over. So I'm asking you, what is the acceptable level of conflict between the government and non-governmental forces in Iraq? Are you seriously suggesting that the current level of violence in Iraq is a success? That is too vague for me to answer. What exactly is progress in domestic matters? What does that encompass? What successes can you name for the Iraqi people? I hope of course the answer you give takes into consideration the basic human rights promoted in the United Nations Human Rights Charter.
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05-19-2008, 05:18 PM | #631 |
Elf Lady
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In reaction to the first link: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
I did a statistical analysis on violence in Iraq when I was in Japan
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05-19-2008, 05:24 PM | #632 | |
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05-19-2008, 05:48 PM | #633 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Hector, it's been more than half an hour now, and here in Norway the time is 11.48 pm so I'll have to call it a night, but please go ahead and post your answer and I'll read it in the morning.
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05-19-2008, 05:52 PM | #634 |
The Ñoldóran
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LOL, I'm American, I've earned the right to be harsh about my own people.
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05-19-2008, 06:22 PM | #635 | |
Elf Lord
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Did you come across the study published in the Lancet in 2004 (and followed up in 2006)? Here, the researchers surveyed Iraqis to estimate the overall death rate and calculate the additional mortality caused by the war. They estimated that 98,000 people died as a result of the war in the first 12 months after invasion. The 2006 update estimated over 600,000 additional deaths to June 2006. But hey, as long as the curve is going downwards that's a success, right? |
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05-19-2008, 06:26 PM | #636 |
Elf Lord
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News not making the record? If only it were true. Our media decided they were bored with Labour's one-party state so they bigged up the Tories' revamped (policy-free) image. Now the Labour government is running round with its pants down, in spite of a pretty strong record and we have clowns like Boris Johnson holding high office.
And I don't agree with the focus just being on the negatives. I think that our media really try to treat Bush with the respect that being the President of US deserves. However, it's an uphill struggle, even for Murdoch rags. I've followed US politics (from afar, admittedly) since the 1970s and I can't remember a worse president by pretty much any measure (unless you count faith-based, fact-averse politics as a positive). The only positive thing I can find to say about him is that he increased the amount of US aid to Africa. OK, some of it was tied to faith-based programmes, and some was handed straight to the favoured faith groups entrusted to deliver them, but still. |
05-19-2008, 07:03 PM | #637 | |
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This one may be more moderate, but it's still horrifying if you ask me.
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05-19-2008, 10:05 PM | #638 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Coffeehouse, my reply is in the Iraq thread.
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05-20-2008, 03:41 AM | #639 |
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Alright thanx. I'll respond there later in the morning.
And to this thread: UK Politics, you are free
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05-20-2008, 08:52 AM | #640 |
Elf Lord
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FREE AT LAST! FREE AT LAST!
Free to vote on embryology and fertility regulation, in a free vote no less: - Creation of "hybrid" human-animal embryos was approved: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7407589.stm - An attempt to prevent the creation of "saviour siblings" was defeated: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7409264.stm - Reduction of abortion limit from 24 to 20 weeks, voting today: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7409696.stm Last edited by The Gaffer : 05-20-2008 at 08:54 AM. |
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