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04-14-2008, 10:43 AM | #1 | ||||
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Arda Healed vs. Arda Unmarred (or Good vs. Evil)
This is a concept that has fascinated me since I first read 'The Lost Tales' years and years ago.
In The Music of the Ainur in The Lost Tales (1), this quote has always fascinated me: Quote:
Further quote, from HoME X, Annals of Aman: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So, my question is, re: good and evil - if Evil is good to have been, and creates greater beauty than good could have on its own (as these quotes seem to be saying) is Evil really, well...evil? Despite what Mandos replies in to Manwë's comments on my second quote ['And yet still be evil'], it seems to me that looking at it this way, Evil is not the opposite of good, but the complement of it. Just ideas. I'd love to have comments.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian Last edited by Curufin : 04-14-2008 at 10:45 AM. |
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04-14-2008, 11:06 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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I think it is a matter of perspective. To Eru, all good is probably equally good and evil merely another theme to adapt in creating further good. To His children, however, drawing comparisons is natural and valid, and by comparison Arda Healed will indeed be "greater, and yet the same."
I don't think this makes 'evil' any less evil. I'm fully behind Mandos on that point. Evil merely provides us a point of comparison by which healing brings greater good.
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04-14-2008, 11:47 AM | #3 |
Elven Warrior
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This is a generalization for all religions but it seems to me to be a priori that if you accept that
-1- there is a single Creator (i.e., one God, as opposed to a pantheon) and -2-deem the Creator to be the source of everything - i.e., all good and evil *and -3- wish to preserve a conception of this Creator as being Itself "good" then you really only have two choices: either -a- evil is necessary (which is different from calling it good), or -b- the Creator cannot be omnipetent (e.g., you could view the Creator as: having had no choice in Its decision to create evil; having had a choice in the creating decision but being thereafter powerless to Personally address the consequences of its creation; etc.). This is a very thorny theological issue, perhaps The Most Difficult Issue of All. Some religions deal with the difficulties by setting up either a co-equal second diety (e.g., Zoroasterism) or a fallen angel/devil (e.g., Satan; Melkor) to assume the responsible for the evil in the world. I can understand how this approach could be comforting to and supportive of folks struggling with continuing to view God as good even in the face of the reality of how much evil exists in the the world. (Personally, though, I come from a tradition that views it preferable, all things considered, to continue to always treat God as the single direct source of all evil as well as good and deal with the consequences that position entails.) If, on the other hand, you find the position that evil exists because God is less than omnipetent and therefore lacks the power to singlehandedly eliminate it from the universe, the popular best-seller, "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold S. Kushner is an example of a description/defense of it. There is a famous Star Trek episode where Kirk is split into two different selves, one totally good, the other totally evil. The result is he can no longer function effectively in either capacity. This parallels an interesting Talmudic discussion of the very same issue where it is concluded that the person with the capacity to do the greatest good is not he or she who is perfectly good to begin with, but rather the man or woman with a significant capacity to do evil but who is able to control the impulse and redirect it to doing good. Myself, I really do find this quote fascinating: "'This, then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World! For that Arda Healed shall not be Arda Unmarred, but a third thing and greater, and yet the same.' " In Hebrew, healing the marring of Arda (or earth)" is called tikkun olam and that phrase is recognized to be exactly as Tolkien describes it: humanity's #1 primary mission in the world. Sans evil, this mission would not exist nor would free will, so I would say that while evil remains evil to be opposed and its consequences ones to be healed, without it, we simply would not be human. Great post, Curufin (you have used ME here as your stepping stone to elucidate the deepest issues a person can face in this world).
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04-14-2008, 12:11 PM | #4 | ||
The Ñoldóran
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Glad you like my thread, Jon S..
Quote:
We discussed this very concept in my philosophy class - how a 'creator' cannot logically be both omnipotent AND benevlolent at the same time. If a creator is omnipotent, then he has created evil and hardship and suffering - which isn't benevolent. And if he hasn't created evil and hardship and suffering, well, he isn't omnipotent. Now I'm not a Christian, but I do spend a good deal of time on philosophical and moral ideas, and I greatly enjoy discussions of morality (yes, you can be moral without being Christian, or even religious, for that matter ). I think that there is a third possiblility, beyond Evil being necessary or having a less-than-omnipotent creator. I think that it is possible that Evil isn't 'evil.' That word has always bothered me - I think it's rather meaningless, and used to tack on to things for emotional emphasis. What is Evil? What does it mean? What are examples of it? Quote:
Now, if evil is subjective, then it's possible that to Eru, what the Valar and the EruhÃ*ni see as 'evil' or 'wicked' is not evil to Eru, who sees everything and knows everything. Like giving a child a vaccination to save them from a horrible disease, sometimes a little pain is necessary for a greater good... Just throwing out more ideas.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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04-14-2008, 12:35 PM | #5 | |
Elven Warrior
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If evil is truly subjective, then there's no more difference between uplifting the downtrodden and gassing children in concentration camps than between vanilla and chocolate. Here's a quote from a recent ynet opinion piece that speaks to this point:
Quote:
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04-14-2008, 12:43 PM | #6 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
As for real-world philosophy, I'm interested but quite amateur. I'm looking forward to the unfolding of this thread. You both seem to be well-versed and I've already learned some things in just a few posts. Keep it going.
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04-14-2008, 12:53 PM | #7 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
EDIT: I don't mean to denigrate your explanation - it is shared by many, wise and otherwise - only to emphasize the remaining moral issue.
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Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. Last edited by Jon S. : 04-14-2008 at 12:54 PM. |
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04-14-2008, 01:20 PM | #8 |
Elf Lord
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I think this is one point at which Tolkien's world diverges, or rather, portrays things in an idealised way. Good and Evil are portrayed as being pretty dichotomous and objective throughout. Though of course the most interesting characters are the ones that straddle the divide (Feanor, Turin, Gildor ), or those who do evil deeds in the name of what is "good".
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04-14-2008, 02:40 PM | #9 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Anyway, what is the remaining moral issue you speak of?
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04-14-2008, 03:31 PM | #10 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Just wanted to point out that this is very much the idea of the felix culpa, dating back to Christian antiquity, and very much a part of the Catholic tradition to which Tolkien belonged.
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04-14-2008, 04:15 PM | #11 |
The Ñoldóran
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Would you mind explaining that idea to those of us who aren't Catholic? Thanks.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
04-14-2008, 04:20 PM | #12 | |
Elf Lord
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From Wikipedia:
Quote:
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04-15-2008, 08:54 AM | #13 |
Elven Warrior
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I agree that you do (no need to rehash).
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04-15-2008, 09:35 AM | #14 |
Elf Lord
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--
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~The DPR "Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning." |
04-15-2008, 12:17 PM | #15 |
Elven Warrior
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Oh, OK, I'll rehash!
This is the moral issue: If instead of telling someone in need that you have the power to help, "Sorry, I'm never helping you," you say instead, "Don't worry, I'll help you eventually but not now, while I could save you now, your continued suffering is necessary for my 'master plan,' " the issue of whether you have turned your back on suffering may be ameliorated somewhat but it remains an issue - and even more so when you yourself are, at a minimum, the creator of the causes of the suffering. (The only reason I didn't type this in my first reply is I thought, from your response, that you were already aware that this is what I was thinking.)
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Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. Last edited by Jon S. : 04-15-2008 at 02:46 PM. |
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