08-26-2007, 12:44 PM | #81 | |||
Elf Lord
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It is important to our national security that we have the ability to stick out wars we're engaged in and to win them. It's also important that we have the ability to engage in the right wars. I know that men won't always get us into the right wars or be able to win them once we're in them. And being more likely to enter the right wars means also being more likely to enter the wrong ones. But unfortunately, we'd also be more likely to lose whatever war we fight, or to be attacked if we delay. I do believe that many men support peace and I think that that is very important to our national security too- it keeps us from overtaxing ourselves or being as likely to hit the wrong targets. But I think men tend to be better designed than women to make these leadership decisions. This is not a constant- some women are far better at making these kinds of decisions than some men. And some men's aggression does make them stupid. I think that as a whole though, the genders are designed to function in this way and there are a great deal of evidences (of which I have listed several above) that indicate this.
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But on the issue of our current form of government standing the test of time, I don't really believe that it has yet. It's still called "the great experiment," and for good reason. Time has not yet passed on this one. On the other hand, the system that existed in the Medieval Ages survived for over a dozen centuries. It would be much easier to argue that their system survived the test of time than it would be to argue that ours has, seeing as our form of government has only been around for two or three hundred years at most. And if one includes those two or three hundred years since our democracy's beginning, one has to include the wars we fought against Britain. This was in a stage of British history where they had a very powerful parliament. They had a king too, of course, but the parliament and their people voted in favor of war against us, and we ended up fighting two wars against the British. They were part of the liberal democracy tradition too, right? And then there also was the Civil War between the Confederate States and the Union. Both were democracies, although I grant you not precisely the same as what we have now. If these cases don't count as clashes between democracies because the democracies weren't liberal enough (and the Confederates were actually fighting for less authoritarianism in government than we held to in our democracy, not more), then we're reducing even more the time that the Western liberal democratic government has existed. We're cutting it down then to about one century. Just to show that wars between democracies are not unheard of . They nearly wiped our country out, twice. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-26-2007 at 12:48 PM. |
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08-26-2007, 05:08 PM | #82 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I don't think any parent in 1955 told their daugher, "one day you might grow up to be president", but I'm sure many do now. Fast forward to a time when the children of today are in their 50s and 60s, and I'd imagine that women in leadership postions will be more or less 50/50.
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08-26-2007, 05:46 PM | #83 | ||||
Elf Lord
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So the Gender Organization argues that men's leadership throughout history and human cultures, as well as the parallels with our primates' social behavior, indicates that male leadership has come from biology. Here's a more clear source about the biological psychological parallels we have with our primates: Quote:
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Here are percentages of people from each gender who favored war in the time of the Persian Gulf War. This data comes also from International Politics on a World Stage, by Rourke. Belgians- Men, 53%, women, 40%. British- Men, 62%, women, 53%. French- Men, 54%, women, 49%. Germans- Men, 60%, women, 50%. Israelis- Men, 90%, women, 86%. Italians- Men, 50%, women, 24%. Japanese- Men, 14%, women, 7%. Mexicans- Men, 90%, women, 86%. Nigerians- Men, 43%, women, 41%. Russians- Men, 47%, women, 39%. Turks- Men, 45%, women, 47%. Americans- Men, 62%, women, 41%. In all but one of the countries polled, men were more likely than women to favor war. Many women have been in favor of wars at various times, for sure, and there is going to be variation within each gender, from person to person. But overall, it is clear from the available data that this attitude toward war is one symptom of a broader gender difference that exists. Seeing that these differences between men and women exist across nationalities and religious boundaries also strongly points toward a biological explanation. The book "Essentials of American Government" by Tim Chevernak says also that political science polls have repeatedly shown that women are less aggressive than men. Women tend to be more nurturing than men, however. Which is also essential for humanity. The combination is a necessary and complementary one that was structured in the way it was biologically for the benefit of our species and those that are genetically closest to ours. This is what all of the evidence points toward, however much modern culture might want to reject ideas that our ancestors have held to throughout the existence of the human race. But modern ideas about the complete psychological equality of men and women are, according to the Gender Organization, reflecting "the power of socialization." To me, this accumulation of evidence is enough to point, in this case, toward a counter-culture conclusion as the most logical one available.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-26-2007 at 05:51 PM. |
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08-26-2007, 07:10 PM | #84 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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It sounds to me, Lief, that about the only thing you think about when you hear the word 'woman' is 'gentle and caregiver'. If you ask me that's rather an overly romantical view. (resisting the urge to say: "well, looks like men still don't understand us" and obviously failing. )
I would also like to point out that you have to be careful in the extent that you let biology rule our behaviour. Sure, males have biologically more testosteron, which is has clear links with aggression, but humans are so much a special behavioural case, that I don't know whether you can rely so massively on biology alone. The human psychological upmake is far more complex. Also, because women are traditionally more inclined to stay at home and look after the kids because of the society, doesn't mean it is more naturally right. Quote:
(Also I tend to be carefull about polls making assumptions for such large and diverse population groups. I don't know how this poll was made, but interviewing 100 persons does never quite give an accurate view of 10 million, let alone half the human population.)
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08-26-2007, 08:41 PM | #85 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-26-2007 at 08:50 PM. |
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08-26-2007, 08:50 PM | #86 |
Elf Lord
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I'm exhausting this thread and my brain with these monolithic posts! Maybe I should pipe down a bit.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-27-2007, 06:06 AM | #87 |
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I think you ARE this thread. You are the only one who keeps saying that maybe women should be excluded from politics or leading functions.
I don't recall everything said in this thread, but I don't think there was anyone holding the same views. So don't worry about long posts.
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08-27-2007, 03:43 PM | #88 | ||||||
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08-27-2007, 04:34 PM | #89 | |||
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But I cited other sources in addition to the Political Science Branch to provide additional support and show more angles of this. I know others here obviously disagree with the case I've set out, but I don't really have anything more to add right now beyond what I've already said, and I believe that the strength and variety of the evidences and sources I've used makes my argument very well founded. So I think that makes us at rather an impasse. So I think I may take another break from this thread. I'm sure the debate will pop up again sometime, though .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-27-2007 at 04:36 PM. |
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08-27-2007, 04:56 PM | #90 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Anyway, I tend to have this same urge repeatedly while reading your arguments. So yeah, I think we have reached an impasse. I find your arguments speculative and not enough proven, and likely you think likewise of mine. At this point we're bound to just go into repeating our arguments over and over and over again, at best differently phrased. I've said what I wanted to say, so I'm pretty much done too.
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We are not things. Last edited by Earniel : 08-27-2007 at 04:59 PM. |
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08-28-2007, 01:25 AM | #91 | ||
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I just want to point out that before you use Political Science as the foundation for your beliefs on women's voting rights, remember that it's an art and not a science.
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08-28-2007, 06:56 AM | #92 |
Elf Lord
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Okay, so women shouldn't be allowed to vote on issues of war, and men shouldn't be allowed to vote on issues of health care, education, welfare, and criminal justice (since men are much more naturally criminal, you'd want to exclude them from this area).
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08-28-2007, 12:49 PM | #93 | |
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08-28-2007, 01:22 PM | #94 | |
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08-28-2007, 02:20 PM | #95 |
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Dont do that! Youll blow his gender concepts about females and aggression. Now be a good girl and follow your biological stereotypes. You are allowed to pout and brood and flirt but that’s about it.
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08-28-2007, 02:31 PM | #96 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-28-2007, 03:15 PM | #97 |
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Wait... I never got the memo on the nurturing bit; if someone could fill me in on what exactly my role is supposed to be as the childless freak that I am?
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08-28-2007, 03:57 PM | #98 | |
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08-28-2007, 05:29 PM | #99 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-28-2007 at 05:30 PM. |
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08-29-2007, 01:24 AM | #100 | ||||||||
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Mostly from What if you owned your own country?
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However, I think this is the basis of our disagreement. You feel that the most important criteria is gender, so that is the first selector. After that other qualities/skills applicants possess would mean they would carry on in the army. I place other qualities/skills ahead of gender, so they are the first selector instead. What do you think? Let's look at this a different way. Let's just say that all women's eyes, for whatever reason, are incapable of properly looking through a rifle's scope. Not possessing this ability is unacceptable in the army. Therefore, no woman can be in any part of the army where she would have to use a rifle. The limitation is based not on the fact that she is a woman, but because she can't physically use a rifle. If a man couldn't use a rifle either, he would face the same restrictions. Therefore it's not about gender, but about ability. Do you see the difference here? Quote:
We actually know very little about the human brain and how the mind works, so you should be extremely careful about what judgements you make about people based on perceived psychological differences. Quote:
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1. Political Science Political science is an art, not a hard science. The scientific aspect of this dicipline is the methodology used for surveys, studies, writing papers, etc. Academically, political scientists try to be as rigorous as possible, presenting data with statistical significance etc. Political science being an art doesn't make it any less valid, but it is important to remember that it is an art, and that means there is a lot in this field (as with psychology, for example) that we simply cannot study properly. This matters. We may never reach an answer to questions like "to what lever does our culture affect political leanings?" In this thread, you've made a few statements along the lines of "this study shows that women vote for war less often, therefore they should not be in politics," or some such. But what is the scope of the study? What is the sample size? How diverse was the sample size? These things affect what kind of conclusions you can draw from the answers. More importantly, consider carefully what conclusions it is appropriate to draw from a study. If the study concludes that women politicians vote to go to war less often, what exactly is that telling you? Be careful not to overreach what the study has actually covered. 2. Different Votes for Different Folks With the women and war example again, let's assume for the sake of argument that women support war less than men. Let's also assume that this is bad for the country. Lawmakers, then, decide that women will not vote on a bill pertaining to war, while men don't get to vote on, say, whether or not education is mandatory. Problems with giving adults different voting rights will be endless, and I do mean endless. A. Women today will never stand for this crap. Suggesting different voting rights would be political suicide, and if it ever happened, there would be rioting in the streets. B. The nature of elections Unless the voting is on California-style direct-democracy bills, there would be no way to differentiate between the feminine and masculine elections. We usually vote for a representative to the Senate or Parliment. How would you decide who gets to vote then? What about on a highways bill? Do women or men vote on roads? How would you decide? There are a whole load of other problems I can think of, but I'll just start with these. C. The costs and benefits of this dual voting system. Quote:
A note on statistical significance Statistical significance is important. It decides if data from the group surveyed indicates a meaningful difference in the population as a whole. (More detail on this concept here.) <stats rant> Let us examine these numbers: Quote:
Now, if these numbers are actually significant, give us the real stats and then we'll talk. </stats rant>
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