How did Arwen give up her immortality?

[ringbearer]

Is it explained...is there a ritual performed? Does "just staying" in ME and not sailing off cause it to happen? Or is it just a choice?

[Valandil]

Elrond and his brother Elros - and also the children of Elrond - were given the choice of being counted among Men or Elves because of their mixed lineage. This appears to have been a special grant to those few, not to any or all of mixed lineage.

Elrond chose to be among the Elves, Elros chose to be among Men.

For Arwen, choosing to be among Men went hand-in-hand with choosing to marry a man.

We are not told with certainty about the choices of Elladan and Elrohir, Arwen's brothers. Most probably think they chose to be numbered with the Elves.

[brownjenkins]

I've always wondered if Arwen actually ever made the choice to become human or, in fact, ever did. Her story could be interpreted as her giving up he life when Aragorn passed away, as many elves did when the sadness of the world overcame them.

I've always assumed that the "choice" was an event unique to the Eärendil and Elwing situation (them and their two children). Elros' children, for example, weren't given the choice to be elves, and it doesn't seem as if Dior was ever presented with a choice either.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I've always wondered if Arwen actually ever made the choice to become human or, in fact, ever did. Her story could be interpreted as her giving up he life when Aragorn passed away, as many elves did when the sadness of the world overcame them.

That's true, I never thought of that - but the Dunedain could do that, too ... hmmm ...

*gets out "Letters of JRRT" *

No, JRRT says Elrond and Arwen are parted, hence their great grief - so she definitely made the choice. (possible side-thread: is JRRT pro-choice? ) And a footnote in letter 246 has some good info, too.


But an interesting question, Ringbearer - is there some sort of ritual, or just something like a prayer request?

[Butterbeer]

Indeed - very good question!

...........

She made the choice - no two ways - but i wonder if she needed to - or was it almost forced on her?


is it a procreation thing do you think?

(in a funny old way,if it was that, it would make sense!)

[Tessar]

Simply put, she requested, and then filled out, a 'Termination of Services' form with the EIC (Elvish Immortality Center), stopped paying her yearly fees, and dropped her subscription to the monthly newsletter.

[Jon S.]

I think it's pretty clear the half-elven get to choose and their choices become their reality.

[Valandil]

Yes - early in Appendix A (second page of it, in my paperback), see the one paragraph that starts:

The sons of Earnedil were Elros and Elrond, The Peredhil...

The next paragraph continues:

At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong. Elrond chose...

Later in that same paragraph:

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world, or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

As for why Elros' children were not given the same chance as Elrond's... why clearly because their father had made the right choice! For Elrond's children it was sort of a second chance to get it right.

[Jon S.]

This leads me, though, to ask another question that I've pondered: if elves and human can cross-bread, does this make them, biologically, the same species? If so, it would appear the differences between the two are merely racial which, by any objective measure, would make them minor indeed. But they're not minor!

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

This leads me, though, to ask another question that I've pondered: if elves and human can cross-bread, does this make them, biologically, the same species? If so, it would appear the differences between the two are merely racial which, by any objective measure, would make them minor indeed. But they're not minor!

*pokes Jon S.*
Problems of species biology are but child's play for someone who makes up an entire cosmology. Humans and Elves who wanted to breed got permission from the head dragon.

[brownjenkins]

Val knows his appendices!

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

*pokes Jon S.*
Problems of species biology are but child's play for someone who makes up an entire cosmology. Humans and Elves who wanted to breed got permission from the head dragon.

LOL! I am duly chastised.

[ecthelion]

What about unfinished tales and the potion of immortality that Elves there drink, and offer to the human? Is it a metaphore, or JRR's early\late\side position?

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Yes - early in Appendix A (second page of it, in my paperback), see the one paragraph that starts:



The next paragraph continues:



Later in that same paragraph:



As for why Elros' children were not given the same chance as Elrond's... why clearly because their father had made the right choice! For Elrond's children it was sort of a second chance to get it right.

so- we beg the question - if he really loved his daughter, he couldn't have hung around a few mortal years, those of Aragorn's mortal life?

Left the sons and heirs of the union to renew the bloodline and all sailed to the West happy? (with a few hankerchiefs for Arwen)

What gives?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

This leads me, though, to ask another question that I've pondered: if elves and human can cross-bread, does this make them, biologically, the same species? If so, it would appear the differences between the two are merely racial which, by any objective measure, would make them minor indeed. But they're not minor!

Doesn't Tolkien say somewhere that Elves and men are biologically identical?

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Doesn't Tolkien say somewhere that Elves and men are biologically identical?

Indeed:

Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event : there are cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Earendil.

[Gordis]

Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event : there are cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Earendil.

Tolkien should have said "one species"

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Tolkien should have said "one species"

IIRC, race is more specific than species, therefore the usage is adequate.

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally Posted by Landroval

IIRC, race is more specific than species, therefore the usage is adequate.

Race is not a biological distinction and is more of a political device used to exploit superficial physical differences (In both world - ours and Tolkien's).

I was under the impression is that there were some physical differences between various elves (example the elves of Gondolin tended to be smaller than their Noldorian cousins) as there were physical differences between various houses of men - however the real difference between elves and men was their spirit or fëa and the theological constraints placed on it by Eru.

[Landroval]

Well, Oxford dictionary does list race as a biological term:
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/race_2?view=uk

5 Biology: a distinct population within a species; a subspecies.