04-12-2007, 05:57 PM | #301 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-12-2007 at 06:04 PM. |
|
04-17-2007, 12:17 AM | #302 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Haha Lief.
*ahem* Anyway, in another thread, I asked Gwaimir if our actions did or did not influence people getting in to Heaven. But this is open to all. What determines if someone goes to Heaven?
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
04-17-2007, 01:47 AM | #303 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Whether or not Christ lives in our hearts.
If Christ is living in our hearts, he will fill every part of our lives and our actions will change to become good and like his. If people claim to be Christian and live according to worldly standards rather than God's standards, their actions prove that Christ is not in their hearts.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
04-17-2007, 12:24 PM | #304 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Dying in a state of grace.
Whether my answer differs from Lief's or not, I'll let you decide.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
04-17-2007, 01:56 PM | #305 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
I might have a touch of christ in my left pinky. Then again, it may just be a splinter.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
04-17-2007, 02:00 PM | #306 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
|
04-17-2007, 02:14 PM | #307 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
So, what determines if someone goes to Hell then? Simply the opposite, or something else? Haha Brownie.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
04-17-2007, 06:52 PM | #308 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If people reject God in life, they aren't going to immediately change their minds when they die. They'll continue to reject him after death, IMO, and that their sight should suddenly be clear and they should suddenly be undeceived doesn't make sense to me. Sin deceives people. Satan himself was deceived when he thought he could challenge God and win, which shows that after death, people can still be deceived. So I don't think that deception will end with death. People will still hate and reject God as they did in life, and will naturally turn toward the sinful lifestyle that they prefer. Here's where I get to the nuts and bolts of my view. Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven is in the hearts of men. IMO, the same is true of hell. So evil folk don't go to hell upon dying so much as remain in hell. If you have a bunch of people on Earth who are full of absolute goodness, full of God's Spirit, and they're full of love, compassion, kindness, generosity, and all manner of good attributes here on Earth, the place where the live is going to be heaven. Being in their company is going to be heaven. Even if those people are all being tortured, they rely on God and live in him, and their goodness overflows all the more in suffering. One tastes heaven in their presence, because God is inside them. Whether those people are living in hardship or abundance, they are truly joyful in Christ always and are living constantly in heaven. People who have hell in their hearts constantly live there, here on Earth as well as afterward. Stick a bunch of wicked people together and the result is bound to be hell. That happens all the time on Earth and it's no different in the afterlife, IMO. If one thinks about it logically, it also makes a great deal of sense that if the good people live in a separate place from the wicked people, their home would be much better built up. Think about all the time and resources that we use on Planet Earth to destroy one another! If all of that could be harnessed to good projects that benefit humanity, living in Earth would be unbelievable right now. It would literally be a physical paradise, if there was no evil and people worked together in harmony and peace. So for a spiritual home for the saints to be beautiful and full of abundance is only logical. And for a spiritual home for wicked people to be full or torture and flames is also only the logical result of their wickedness. Misery is just the natural result of all sin, whether on Earth or in the afterlife, and God wants to help people avoid that fate both here on Earth and (IMO) in the afterlife. I think there is still preaching and striving to turn people from sin in the afterlife, just as there is here on Earth, and there actually are a couple scripture passages that I think refer to it. I'll probably quote the relevant scriptures when I respond here next. Right now my back and stomach are killing me, so I need to go lie down . . .
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-17-2007 at 06:54 PM. |
|||
04-17-2007, 07:09 PM | #309 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Sorry you're not feeling well, Lief.
What is your acquaintance with the Jean-Paul Sartre? Your theory is remarkably similar to "Huis-clos."
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
04-17-2007, 10:27 PM | #310 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
I'm not familiar with "Huis-clos," though. Would you care to describe it? Here are the scriptures I was planning to cite, to support my views on conversion being possible after death: 1 Peter 3:18-20 Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built . . . 1 Peter 4:5-6 [Pagans] will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-17-2007 at 10:31 PM. |
||
04-18-2007, 02:11 PM | #311 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
04-18-2007, 05:31 PM | #312 | |||||||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Continued from the Evolution Thread . . . Jonathan, prepare yourself for a huge post. Your post opened a whole 'nother issue by leaving the confines of the single passage we were discussing and moving on to discuss the rest of the Genesis account. Because you took the liberty of expanding the conversation in that way, I have taken the liberty of adding Revelation into the mix . Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But consider the passage that you just pointed out again, and note that according to it and the series of creation, life originated in the sea, and man is actually the most recent kid on the block. So there you see some significant connections to the order of evolution, though I agree with you that not everything fits yet. Quote:
But I think that the Genesis account as a whole has a LOT of things going for it that are way beyond the descriptions in most myths. I'll point some more out: Quote:
My source is a book called Ice Ages that I got from the library at one point and no longer have. I really am determined to hunt up the sources for it in more detail sometime this summer. Quote:
This passage determined the medieval outlook on the origins of the Earth. The church in the medieval era wrote in extremely explicit terms that the Earth's land had, in the past, been one great supercontinent. They took this passage and interpreted it just as it says, and came up with scientific fact. It was a passage they made predictions on, and saw those predictions verified. Because the Bible was clear on this and the church doctrine had been clear on this, when the theory that the continents had at first been one was initially proposed, scientists spurned it and made the man who proposed it a laughingstock because "it's too Christian." And I think that this birds thing is another one that will come out. Just wait, and considering the rate of scientific discovery, I expect that within our lifetimes, we'll see the evolution order with birds rearranged so that it was sea creatures, birds and then land animals. It might be after we're dead that this is discovered, but I bet it'll be within them. Quote:
It certainly does. And in the past, almost all of the reptiles stood upright. Now, they crawl on their bellies and eat dust, just as the scripture says. So I believe that this is a clear reference to a dinosaur. The problem, as with the birds, lies in the fact that this serpent shouldn't have stood upright because it wasn't born 65 million years ago but more like 6,000 or so. And even if the scientific dating does adjust to back this account, it won't be viewed as more impressive than other cultures, because dragon myths are to be found worldwide, as are the worldwide flood myths. IMO, those two major, extremely consistent myths across culture are strong evidences that they are descriptions of an ancient memory of mankind. But this is one that still requires further investigation. Some of the other passages I want to quote, referencing their connections to science, but the scientific connections just aren't quite fully there. They're partial but incomplete, so I hesitate. In the Book of Revelation, there are several passages that have very strong connections to various worldwide events and technologies. I'll quote a few. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
A huge, HUGE cause of this destruction of our oceans is pollution. "And something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea." One can nit-pick and say, "the pollution isn't physically on fire, and though the world's oceans are going to look like blood, they aren't actually going to be blood," but that really is nit-picking. The major elements of the judgment are all literally occurring. Quote:
Quote:
Another passage of interest would be Revelation 9:13-19. It describes four angels bringing this judgment: "A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of [the angels' horses'] mouths." And the hourses of the angels had "tails . . . like snakes, having head with which they inflict injury." Injury coming from the tails rather than the mouths of these creatures is significant, for though the immediate destruction, the fire, comes from their mouths, the snakes being the tail end of the attack indicates that is an after effect. In the same way, the nuclear blast comes first and the radiation second. All of these visions would, to the people of the time, have had to have been fulfilled by miracles. The people didn't know about modern events and technologies, but modern times are shaping up for many of these events to take place. And there are good reasons why those events are taking place now rather than in the past. So what I've now shown you are most of the scriptures that strongly impress me from Revelation and Genesis, as predictive prophecies that modern science and various unpredictable events have shown are coming true or have come true. There are some others that I believe the Lord is explaining to me, but I'm still conducting some detailed historical research on the events I believe the scriptures are talking about, and so am not comfortable with presenting my partial historical findings yet. There are a lot of prophecies that are very interesting, though, which are amazing from the scripture. The ones I showed you, I find highly impressive in the precision of their descriptions, but there are others from scripture that are at least that impressive and describe the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ. They have already been fulfilled, and one really doesn't have to look beyond them to see the truth.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-20-2007 at 04:08 AM. |
|||||||||||||
04-20-2007, 04:11 AM | #313 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Jonathan, most of the above monster post is to you . *Nightmares rise from the black pool as you look in horror at that length . . .*
Not that I'm excluding anyone else from responding to it .
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-20-2007 at 04:14 AM. |
04-22-2007, 09:50 AM | #314 | |||||
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
|
Neat post Lief. I wonder how many inches of computer screen it measures
Alright then. Here we go… I hope you are aware it is common that people read their thoughts, beliefs and ideas into certain books, lyrics etc. People who are fascinated with the number 23 will see that number in all kinds of places and interpret texts in such a way that 23 appears in some way or another. People who read Lord of the Rings might read a chapter that reminds them of World War II. And suddenly the trilogy seems to be plentiful of allegories to the war. Never mind that Tolkien himself said his books weren’t allegories of any war at all. If you specifically look for something specific in a text, you’ll probably find it - whether or not that thing was meant to be there at all. If you look for the number 23, a war allegory or even support for the theory of evolution in the Bible, you’ll probably find it We read what we want into basically everything. It’s natural for us to do so. You can post all Biblical interpretations you want and say they resemble moderns science (perhaps much better than any other myth). But the fact remains that these are still your own interpretations. In my mind this takes away much of the “coolness factor” of how well the Bible correlates to modern science, since it’s really your own interpretations that correlate. I don’t think it’s necessary for me to address everything you said. But there are a few things I’d to comment on: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
First – I believe if a child back in the stone age was to ask his father “why don’t snake have legs like all the other animals? (excluding worms, fish etc.) – the father might be likely to respond “huh, the snake probably lost it legs somehow”. You don’t need a divine book to help you invent this explanation. Second (and this is semantics really) – The snake didn’t necessarily evolve from a dinosaur specifically. Dinosaurs are just a subspecies (or something) in the reptile family. But yes, the snake evolved from a reptile at least. And yes, you can interpret the biblical text as a reference to pre-historic reptiles but it doesn’t have to be Quote:
To summarize, analogous dragon stories is not strong evidence that early humans met dinosaurs. One could come up with plenty of probable explanations. The pyramids built by the Egyptians, Mayans and others – are they evidence that these cultures had contact with one another? Or could it be that pyramids were just the easiest construction when you wanted to build something really big? As for all your quotes from Revelation – that whole part of the Bible is written in such a sneaky way that it is really easy to interpret it any way you want . I guess that was the purpose too. Any exact description of an event and dates of when it will happen would just result in people saying “Oh. That didn’t happen”. But vague, strange wordings will make sure Revelation keeps its great interest throughout the centuries. In the past, people have been able to connect things in Revelation with contemporary events and people in the future will be able to do that as well. The visions have already been fulfilled before and will be fulfilled again and again, thanks to how vaguely formulated they are. Quote:
Anyway, pesticides is one interpretation but you could easily come up with many more (“wormwood the star” could be a comet, a nuclear weapon, a virus, an alien race of intergalatctic worms etc. ) Btw the Swedish word for “wormwood” (malört) makes you think of moths rather than worms. Just a funny observation You read the Bible with your built-in filters and I read it with mine. And everyone else reads it with theirs . I agree that the Bible has many passages that seem to fit well with modern scientific theories. However I disagree with you that these correlations are cool or amazing in any way. Because you can correlate anything with everything, really. So posting any more scientific connections won’t change these views of mine! Thanks for that gargantuan post Lief! A pleasure to exchanges ideas with you
__________________
An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
|||||
04-22-2007, 10:54 AM | #315 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
||
04-22-2007, 11:02 AM | #316 | ||
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
||
04-22-2007, 11:24 AM | #317 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Here are the root meanings according to this website: http://www.the-night.net/absinthe/wormwood.htm
How reliable it is, I don't know, but I have no reason to think it's bad. It mentions the later connection to Absynth as well. Quote:
Quote:
I'll respond to the rest soon.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||
04-22-2007, 12:57 PM | #318 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dinosaurs/warmblood.html I said,"there's no consensus, they may have been." http://www.txtwriter.com/onscience/A...dinoblood.html Both true. Your Biology professor does not represent a consensus of scientists on this point. The verdict is not yet in. And wormwood is used as an anthelmintic. Much more logical as an explanation for the common name.
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
|
04-22-2007, 03:19 PM | #319 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
Posts: 6,433
|
Lief, if you ever write a book, you will put Robert Jordan TO SHAME.
I'm sure I'll need a U-Haul trailer to purchase the entire series. |
04-22-2007, 03:26 PM | #320 | ||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Anyone can argue anything about anything. That does not mean anything can mean anything, and acknowledging that alternative interpretations exist should not keep one from finding the obvious and correct interpretation cool. Quote:
Quote:
The atmosphere is one layer of the sky. That's what the sky means. I expect that that event also was responsible for creating the other layers of the sky as well, though again, I'll need to find my source. But it's as the scripture said, water was separated from water and the sky was made out of what originally was one big mush of water, thus separated from the seas, just as the scripture says. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Besides, if the Bible was trying to answer questions like, "why don't snakes have legs like the other animals?" it would probably also seek to say why humans don't have wings, or why fish have scales instead of feathers. Quote:
I'd rather not respond to your point about dragon myths, for the moment, for that's a tangent issue and I'd rather focus upon what the Bible says at the moment. Quote:
The sea is turning red like blood because something like a mountain fell into it, the sun is receiving power to scorch the people of the Earth, the world's rivers and springs of water are turning bitter due to "wormwood" (a remedy that historically has been used to cleanse people from parasites, and which thus is a very logical word to choose to refer to pesticides that hadn't been invented yet, and would cleanse plants from parasites), and now the technology exists for mankind to horrifically mutilate itself with fire and further injury afterward (radiation). By the way, you haven't responded to my points about the scriptural references to Pangea and Panthalassa. Quote:
In one passage, the scripture refers to God's people being taken to a place of safety for 1,260 days, and says that after that time is over, the devil will "pursue" the church. In a different passage, it says that Christ and his saints will reign on Earth for "1,000 years," and says that after that time, Satan will come forth and deceive the nations. I think that "1,000" is a rounded number (like the God's prediction of Israel's time of captivity in Egypt was) and 1,260 is a precise number. I think that these two scriptures are actually referring to the same events. The similarity between these scriptures suggests that day might mean year, but this is the shakiest part of my beliefs about Revelation. If I'm right about it, though, then a LOT of events line up with history in very impressive ways, for a number of very important scriptural events line up perfectly if given precisely 1,260 years as the timetable. None of the apocalypse scriptures that I've quoted to you above depend on those timetables, though. Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||||||||||||||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Science | ayarella | General Messages | 804 | 04-13-2012 09:05 PM |
muslims PART 2 | Spock | General Messages | 805 | 02-03-2011 03:16 AM |
Theological Opinions | Nurvingiel | General Messages | 992 | 02-10-2006 04:15 PM |
REAL debate thread for RELIGION | Ruinel | General Messages | 1439 | 04-01-2005 02:47 PM |
Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread | Rían | General Messages | 2289 | 01-08-2004 02:31 AM |