01-23-2007, 11:31 PM | #21 | ||||
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http://jewishworldreview.com/kathleen/parker121506.php3 The question is meant to point to the structure of family. Who is baby's biggest bond with? Mom. Mom is the one you go to usually, because mom was the one you were always with as a child. Let me make this more relevant: the mothers serving in Iraq and Aghanistan. Daddy dying is pain beyond compare, but when Mom dies it's a whole other world for that child. Quote:
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01-23-2007, 11:37 PM | #22 | |
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01-23-2007, 11:42 PM | #23 | ||||
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By the way, why is this all about the shortcomings of women in politics or leadership functions? I am sure there is a far longer list of men failing in their leading positions... But since our societies have mainly been patriarchical ever since our races changed from being nomads to settling in one place, the line of argument has ben set I guess. Women and men might be equal, but everyone has to fit into a model created by thousands of years of male dominance. Now what I am going to say next is about stereotypes, is my personal experience and I have absolutely no official source to back it up (allthough I am sure there are) so don't kill me for that OK? Back in my (Western) home country I am not supposed to say I like cooking, because that means I am behaving too girlish and women of our time have to be strong and prove that they are equal to men blablabla. But that I like sports like basketball, soccer, etc. is a good thing. Here in Japan I am not supposed to say I like sports (in fact I am not allowed to join in open soccertournaments organized by the people of the dorm) and being able to carry my own bag is something of a rarity when there are boys around (In case there are no boys, all the girls are all of a sudden perfectly able to carry their own bags themselves I still get a shock when I see boys carrying those silly little handbags in which you cannot put more than perhaps one pen for their girlfriends...) but when I say I like cooking, people are all of sudden relieved that they can find some girlish thing about me or something. Quote:
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01-23-2007, 11:55 PM | #24 | |
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01-24-2007, 01:58 AM | #25 | |||||||||||
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Unless their mother or father are absent or total failures as parents in some way (in which case, the child has already lost that parent), a child would be equally devastated by the loss of either parent. My Dad worked full time when I was growing up, but I never felt like he was around less than my Mom was. Besides, my school day as a kid overlapped with most of my Dad's work day. This also kept me away from my Mom whether she was home that day or not, so it's not like I was always around my Mom, and therefore would be more devastated by losing her. Quote:
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I think many societies were male-dominated even as hunter-gatherer societies. Quote:
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Small aside: What do Japanese people generally think about the character Osugi in the novel Musashi, if they have read that book? She's aggressive, dominating, determined, honourable, and very brave. She (and her husband, because she makes him) embark on a quest to restore their family's honour. Her husband dies during their quest, but Osugi continues after burying him. She challenges Miyamoto Musashi, the greatest swordsman in Japan, to a duel. Musashi refuses to fight her, because she is pretty old. He respects her a lot and he doesn't actually have a quarrel with her. She has a quarrel with him, because she blames him for her son Matahachi's lack of character, which led to a broken engagement (and thus, the need to restore the family's honour). I love Osugi, even though she's the antagonist.
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01-24-2007, 03:26 AM | #26 | ||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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For instance, my Mom tells me how to do even the very simplest things that I already know how to do and have been doing for years. Sometimes, I feel insulted to think, "how could she doubt that I knew how to do that?" But according to that book, this is because women tend to just want to help men and this is one of their ways of trying to help people. No harm is intended- the desire is common and very innocent. So learning what that book taught me, I realized that my Mom meant nothing by this and so we get along very well now in spite of things like that. And men tend to be very achievement oriented and doers, and will hence tend to try offering solutions when women just come to them for sympathy. That can lead to misunderstandings among both genders. So the book just talks about general differences between the genders that show up over and over and over, and it explains what they are. Knowing about them can help improve people's relationships. It's not intended to treat people in absurd ways, but rather to treat them in a way that enhances the relationship for both parties, and also it helps people to understand why people of the other gender do some of the apprently crazy things they do. It just helps people with their relationships with people of other genders. Nothing else. But if you think that everyone has the same kind of brain, or highly, highly similar brains, and that gender differences don't make much difference, really, then I can understand your finding the book useless. You're denying what psychologists constistantly find to be true, though. Quote:
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The fact that this gender difference exists over all these different countries is a strong evidence that this is at least one significant difference between the two genders. And of course it'll hop around some. I'm not saying that women will never support war. But I am saying that there is an obvious and potentially worrisome difference between the genders. I don't believe most women would be anywhere near so likely as men to take strong action in times of crisis, and that means that women in politics could put our nation into jeopardy. Quote:
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Belgians- Men, 53%, women, 40%. British- Men, 62%, women, 53%. French- Men, 54%, women, 49%. Germans- Men, 60%, women, 50%. Israelis- Men, 90%, women, 86%. Italians- Men, 50%, women, 24%. Japanese- Men, 14%, women, 7%. Mexicans- Men, 90%, women, 86%. Nigerians- Men, 43%, women, 41%. Russians- Men, 47%, women, 39%. Turks- Men, 45%, women, 47%. Americans- Men, 62%, women, 41%. In all but one of the countries polled, men were more likely than women to favor war. Many women have been in favor of wars at various times, for sure, and there is going to be variation within each gender, from person to person. But overall, it is clear from the available data that this attitude toward war is one symptom of a broader gender difference that exists. Seeing that these differences between men and women exist across nationalities and religious boundaries also strongly points toward a biological explanation. Quote:
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01-24-2007, 04:01 AM | #27 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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And also, are you suggesting that all humans originated in one single place at one point in time, as in the Bible? Just for the sake of clarification . Because if that's not what you're suggesting, then isn't it an incredible coincidence that many different tribes decided to be patriarchal independently from one another? A third question: If this difference is cultural, as you suggest, why didn't the culture change sooner in various places? We have observed massive culture shifts within tiny spaces of time, such as changes in religion that have swept through whole countries in a matter of just a few years, and political changes that have tossed aside whole ways of life in no time. Why, in all the turmoil and change of thousands of years of civilization (and if you believe modern scientific information on the origins of humanity, hundreds of thousands of years before that), was this bit of "culture" not changed too, in more than a tiny handful of places and times? Quote:
Maybe I got a little carried away. And no, of course you don't have to have any additional source to back up your personal experience. You are the official source, when it comes to your personal experience . Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-24-2007 at 04:03 AM. |
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01-24-2007, 07:50 AM | #28 |
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The problem, Lief, is that (if we take a Belgian female politician as an example) you can't get 40% of a person. She will either be in favour of war or not. So, you are extrapolating from surveys to individuals, which doesn't make sense. We don't recruit our leaders by random sample. They are carefully selected to ensure existing vested interests are preserved
The other thing to say is that the choice of measurement (support for a war) is subjective and arbitrary. It's also what's called a "surrogate" measurement, because what you're really interested in is (I presume) whether a woman can be trusted to defend her country. So, if you want to be scientific about politics, there needs to be a clear statement of exactly what it is you are looking for and an objective means of assessing it. It would be interesting to run the same poll, but with "stupid" and "intelligent" as the sample populations instead of men and women. Or rich and poor for that matter. My guess is you would get some consistent patterns |
01-24-2007, 09:50 AM | #29 | |||||
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Ok, (Get serious Hector! *slaps self*) what I mean is that if you have to lose a parent, you're going to need your mother most if you are still very young. There it is. The cruelest statement of all time.
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01-24-2007, 10:11 AM | #30 | ||||||||
Elf Lady
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[QUOTE=Lief Erikson]No, if women are to be in high places, it should be possible to trust them to defend our country in times of crisis. So that's women's problem. Except that I don't view it as a "problem" at all, because in my view, it should be men's problem. Our gender is designed to fulfill that function, and I think Nurvi's right in linking this male dominance to our species'
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1) In nature, the females are usually considered to most fierce creatures when they fight to protect their children. That women might hesitate to go to war doesn't mean that they would make bad defenders. In fact, I think you can make a point about women being more able to defend what they love and "nurture" than men. It might be my misunderstanding of the word nurturing, but isn't protecting and defending inherent to nurturing? 2) In the hunter-gatherer stage it was the job of men to sustain their families by finding food. Which left the women in charge of the defending part. Allthough this last statement is just what I remember from history-class, but it does seem rather logical. Quote:
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And I wanted to go to bed early today so for a change I wouldn't be late for college... that's what I get for thinking: "let's check Entmoot quickly before going to sleep"
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01-24-2007, 10:23 AM | #31 | |
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My point: some people might need their mothers most, but there are also "fathers-children". And in these times it happens more often that the father stays home while the mother is out working (not that often, but still it happens) So I guess it depends a bit. But in the case of the military: the person who is in the military will probably be the one who is "out" most, so if that person would be the mother, it might be the other way around. I don't think the statement is that cruel, it is a general opinion shared by many. (please note that I do not necessarily agree or disagree with it)
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01-24-2007, 01:38 PM | #32 | ||||
Elf Lord
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I'd also point out again the problem of women being too aggressive, which has been noted in the political science branch. It seems to be a dual problem. Quote:
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But I agree with you that you can run studies and get some pretty consistent information. For example, most blacks in our country lean toward liberalism and the Democratic Party. Republicans tend to be young, rather affluent white males. There is data that indicates these kinds of things. But you won't find that consistently throughout all countries polled. There are a number of very conservative African countries. So there's no argument for saying that that is racial. But because the data regarding women spans almost every country polled, and has remained consistent no matter which war we're talking about them favoring, and crosses religious and cultural barriers, there is a very strong indication that this is a significant gender difference.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-24-2007 at 01:41 PM. |
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01-25-2007, 04:03 PM | #33 | |||
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The problem I have with this discussion is that yes, men and women have physical differences, different brains, and are socialised differently, but what is often important in a situation is that individuals are different, not that men and women are different.
This quote outlines my difficulties: Quote:
Here's a good example. Argintinia invaded the British colony of the Falkland Islands in 1982. The Argentine President, Leopoldo Fortunato Galtieri, probably thought Margaret Thatcher would be reluctant to go to war as well, partly because of the great distance between England and the Falklands, and partly because of British foreign policy generally being to retreat from foreign colonies. However, he was wrong. We all know how this conflict ended - Britain reasserted its sovereignity in the Falklands and Argintinia retreated. I'm sure Matthew Thatcher would have reacted similarly. Or, if this hypothetical man did not, it wouldn't be because he was a man, but because he is a different individual than Margaret Thatcher, with different beliefs and experiences, and is therefore prone to different reactions. This example shows how its not gender is not important, it's the individual qualities of each person. Whether or not these differences stem from gender or another factor is irrelevant. If you think a woman Prime Minister of Canada wouldn't defend her country, with deadly force if needed, you are sorely wrong. If Condoleeza Rice were the President of the USA, do you really think she'd let anyone invade her country unchallenged? Do you think Tarja Hallonen, Finland's current President, would let Russia walk all over them? No way.
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01-26-2007, 02:35 PM | #34 | |||||||||||
Elf Lord
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The only times of crisis are not times when you're being directly invaded. There are other kinds of crisis situations where a firm hand is needed. Iran and North Korea are two modern day examples. The Cuban Missile Crisis was another good example. Women would not have been as likely to confront Russia as Kennedy was.
When your territory is directly invaded, you fight or you are conquered. It's very simple, so I'm not surprised many women would be more ready to support war, in those circumstances. But there are other kinds of situations which could have grave consequences, and which don't involve direct invasion. During the Persian Gulf War, a lot of Israeli and Turk women supported the war. Their countries were directly threatened. In most of the other countries, the gender gap was much more pronounced, because Saddam wasn't a direct threat to those countries. He was an indirect or long term threat, because of the oil he got access to by invading Kuwait. But women in most countries didn't feel that was enough to go in. Far more men did. Quote:
But I know Mari's experience has been different, so I'm sure socialization can have an influence in some places. Quote:
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And I know that what you say is true about a number of other species. But if you're going to compare us to animals, it makes sense to compare us to the species that are closest to ours in DNA. Compare us to gorillas or apes for example, if you will. We still are our own species, and bound to have differences from theirs, but that might work. Now among gorillas, males dominate the social structure. They also are the military. They fight to defend their females, and there is one silverback male who dominates the group. And among chimps: Quote:
This would actually be an additional evidence that these observed significant differences between human men and women are genetic differences inherent in our species. It serves as an additional explanation for why men have always, with only a very few exceptions, dominated human civilizations. Quote:
Look at human history as far back as our ability to record goes, and you'll see men in the military, not the women. It seems unlikely that women were the aggressive defenders in the hunter-gatherer stage, when they were physically weaker. In Indian tribes, the men were both defenders and leaders. I think that in the hunter-gatherer phase, they almost certainly fulfilled both functions as well. Of course, if a woman was being hunted by some wild animal, she might defend herself out of necessity. But men have always both done the hunting and protected the women from wild animals and other humans, as long as we've had the ability to record it. Quote:
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There are whole genres of films and books made for men and other genres made for women. They're designed for those genders because authors and film makers know who will buy them. There are romantic comedies which are much more about relationships and romance, and then there are more male oriented formula fiction films or books that focus heavily on sex and violence. And even where there were major female deities, in all the cases I'm acquainted with (Sumerian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, Phoenician, Carthaginian, Egyptian), there was an officially higher ranking male deity. I can't think of any instances where there weren't, though at times a female goddess has been worshipped more strongly in a society than their male leader god. I don't think that there was any shift from matriarchal to patriarchal society, because I don't think there was ever any big matriarchal movement. There have definitely been goddesses, though. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-26-2007 at 02:39 PM. |
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01-27-2007, 04:19 AM | #35 | |||||||
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After having read the definition, now what do you think? Quote:
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I can only think of one woman leader who faced a crisis, and that was Margaret Thatcher. A sample size of one isn't quite good enough. Like I said before, women should have a chance to screw up the planet as much as male politicians do! Quote:
I hope you have better table manners than a chimpanzee. Quote:
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01-27-2007, 02:29 PM | #36 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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This all happens naturally. Socialization has an immense impact on people, but most parents treat their children in an even handed way, allowing them to be themselves to a large extent as regards what activities they favor and want to commit to. That isn't true all around the world, but it is certainly true here in the West nowadays, and the vast majority of women still fulfill their gender roles. Quote:
You can see other, smaller evidences too all the time. Formula fiction, for instance, is designed for the different genders. It is made the way it is because it sells. The producers know, based on sales, that men like action books and movies, and women like those that focus more on relationships. This again shows the consistent gender differences in our society, though granted, there are also people who hate formula fiction period because of the lack of sophistication in the plot structures, among other reasons. Not that that means that those people are going to be different in gender roles, necessarily. I linked a psychotherapist's book too, where he talks about his experience. The political science branch has always known and accepted, based upon many different polls and studies, that men and women are significantly different. So I've presented a lot of evidence on this subject, and from many different sources. It all suggests that women and men have significant genetic differences. And that has implications in the political arena. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-29-2007, 10:28 PM | #37 | |||||||||||||||
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You probably have seen evidence in your own life, and probably have read a study or two, and this is probably why we have such diametrically opposite beliefs. Quote:
If anything I do in my own life happens to coincide with a gender role, that is sheer coincidence. The idea that basic aminal instincts that may or may not exist will override my individual capacity for reasoning and decision-making is unacceptable to me. Quote:
What's the Genetic Organization study, and why are they looking at men almost always national leaders throughout history? We already know this is the case. However, I think you should be more careful about what inferences you make from historical records. In this case, I think it's like tasting from an expired milk carton to see if you like the taste of milk - what is old does not reflect the current reality. Yes, we can learn a lot from history, but it is not always reflectant of the way people behave today. Quote:
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01-30-2007, 12:18 PM | #38 |
Elf Lady
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in592330.shtml
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article....ticle_id=79083 I can't help thinking: what if Bush had been a woman? Would he still be this (warning: personal opinion ahead) stupid and overly agressive? I am almost ready to surrender my arguments, because allthough I just KNOW there is something not right about the twist Lief is trying to give this whole thing, I just don't know how to counterpart anymore. Not that I'll ever agree with you Lief, no matter how much political scientific evidence you are going to bring in this discussion, sorry I just don't think you can measure a persons/ womans potential of being a good political leader based on an average. The women who actually get that high in the government will have had to proof themselves as not being average a long time before they got to that point up high. They made a choice to go into the hard world of politics and in order to survive that long they had to do that wholeheartedly, whereas there are male politicians who only became politicians because their daddy's were and their daddy's before them and others simply bought their way in (off course, not everyone is like this) but I don't think there are many women who can pull this off. No solid proof though. Just my thoughts. On a whole different note: how exactly are women in high politics going to slow decision making down? I am not thoroughly familiar with even my own countries system, but don't they usually vote or something? And if all the guys are going to vote in favor of a war (as they are supposed to do since that is in their genetics if I understand everything correctly) then who cares about a few women of whom a few will vote against, seen their nurturing state and a few in favor, because they are overly agressive? Speaking of American politics, I really should read up on the election thread. Might find something interesting happening over there with Hilary in the race and all.
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01-30-2007, 02:28 PM | #39 |
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So Lief when do we start testing the womens to see if we should ALLOW them to be leaders in our society... Clearly just allowing them to run for office and be leaders is harmful to our society and therefore should be banned right?
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01-30-2007, 06:21 PM | #40 | |||
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You don't elect a gender, you elect a leader.
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