01-11-2007, 12:28 AM | #61 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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Then what happened in th congo with mabuto and lamamba? Listen man, I have posted so many things here about what really is going on and I do believe that some, if not most here have got it. but apparently some of you are still a bit confused. The war on terror is a fraud plain and simple, so get that through your thick head. Here is an audio clip that lays it out very nicely ok; it's 15 mins long. Check it out. http://prisonplanet.tv/audio/100107woods.mp3
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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01-11-2007, 01:57 AM | #62 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Actually, the fact that the US is not experiencing any big personal gains in terms of dropping gas prices from our having liberated Iraq is an indication that we did not invade to get the oil. Quote:
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I'm not going to listen to the clip you linked though, because it's longer than I'm interested in taking the time to listen to. My loss. If you're willing to summarize it in an argument in your own writing, I'll read that.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-11-2007 at 02:05 AM. |
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01-11-2007, 02:18 AM | #63 | |||
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Jonathan said that about Guatemala, not me. In the interest of quote accuracy and all.
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In hindsight, that policy was not a good idea for long-term peace. The Telcontorian is absolutely right about Patrice Lumamba, the duly elected, socialist President of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Ten weeks later, he was dismissed (in a method of dubious legality) from government which started the Congo Uprising, and was captured, tortured, and murdered by soldiers loyal to Mobutu, who headed the coup and was later installed as a dictator. IIRC the CIA was involved, and supported Mobutu, naturally, since they sure know how to pick 'em.
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01-11-2007, 03:06 AM | #64 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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Can't listen to the audio, well here you go: The Real Agenda Of The Global Elite In Somalia Neocons are backing the same warlords that slaughtered US troops in 1993 Steve Watson Infowars.net Wednesday, January 10, 2007 This week has seen the latest example of the US power elite bombing a broken-backed country in the name of the global 'war on terror'. The phantom menace of 'Al Qaeda' has again provided a pretext for the further destruction and destabilization of struggling state, this time Somalia, in order that the Western elite power-mongers can move in and control its valuable resources. The Bush Administration is essentially asking us to expect to believe that it is bombing a country in an attempt to kill three terrorists– Fazul Abdullah Mohammed, the alleged mastermind behind the 1998 attacks on the U.S. embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, that killed 225 people, and accomplices Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan and Abu Talha al-Sudani. The Somali government has today claimed that four more airstrikes have been carried out, killing more innocent people. The US has denied this. Also today, a senior Somali politician said US troops were needed on the ground to fight a Muslim extremist threat. Monday's strike reportedly killed around 200 people, including Canadian and British citizens. Critics of the action have said it could misfire by creating strong Somali resentment and feeding Islamist militancy. Analysts fear that US interfering and backing of one Somali faction against another could ignite an Iraqi-style insurgency across a swath of East Africa. There is no doubt that this is a part of the escalation of the wider war of aggression planned and executed by the neoconservatives who published their Project For the New American Century before they came to power. "Before this, it was just tacit support for Ethiopia. Now the U.S. has fingerprints on the intervention and is going to be held more accountable," said Horn of Africa expert Ken Menkhaus. "This has the potential for a backlash both in Somalia and the region." The truth is that, once again, the terror myth is being promulgated as an excuse to unleash violence against a largely innocent Muslim population, and one that has struggled for a peaceful existence for decades. As prominent blogger Kurt Nimmo has stated: "In other words, it was a turkey shoot, and the targets were not necessarily “al-Qaeda” but rather members of the Islamic Courts Union (ICU), Muslims who not long ago ruled Somalia under the Shariah, or Islamic law. CBS does not bother to mention the fact ICU was popular in Somalia, a Muslim nation." Last December, the popular ICU lost control of the country after a short lived form of peace. The UIC had controlled Mogadishu and other areas of the country after defeating several local warlords who held Somalia in the grip of terror since the collapse of central rule in 1991. The Islamists had succeeded in defeating the warlords primarily through rallying people to their side by creating law and order through the application of Shariah law, which Somalis universally practice. 15,000 Ethiopian troops, with U.S. backing, invaded in an illegal war of aggression and ousted the IUC leaders who fled to the southern-most tip of the country. Many Somalis in areas controlled by the UIC welcomed the security and order that the Islamists brought to the country. The Bush Administration is playing on reports that the Islamists are 'Taliban like' and is lumping them in with 'Al Qaeda' terrorists. But the UIC does not appear to be a monolithic organization and seems split between moderates who want peace and dialogue and more right wing Muslims who want to impose Muslim Sharia law. In any case neither have the means or the desire to commit an almighty Jihad against the West, they are simply concerned with creating some kind of law and order within Somalia. The US response has been to provide major funding to the warlord groupings, via the Ethiopian army, that are opposed to the UIC. Before bombing the hell out of villages on Monday, the Bush Administration has long been providing backing to ruthless killers intent on keeping Somalia in civil strife because it benefits each warlord's plundering rule to keep the nation carved up. These are the same marauding warlords who drove out American forces in 1993, killing and maiming 18 US troops in the streets then dragging their bodies around in celebration. Many of these warlords were part of the puppet regime transitional "government" that had been organized in Kenya in 2004. But the "government" was so devoid of internal support that it had to turn to Somalia's arch enemy, Ethiopia, to maintain control. So why are the US power elite funding sectarian warlords in Somalia and now bombing Islamist areas of the country? Because the control of Somalia via puppet government, just like in Iraq, is a key factor in the Neocon plan to "shrink the non-integrating gap" of the new world order, as Thomas Barnett's 'New Map' of the world has it. As with Iraq, the real agenda is to obtain a direct foothold in a highly strategic region. The Horn of Africa is newly oil-rich, and lies just miles from Saudi Arabia, overlooking the daily passage of large numbers of oil tankers and warships through the Red Sea. Not surprising then that multiple US warships and Ticonderoga-class cruisers are now stalking the coastline off Somalia and routinely sending intelligence-gathering flights over the country. The location is also prime in order to be able to instantly mobilize forces for any conflict with Iran at the drop of a hat. The American oil giants Conoco, Amoco, Chevron and Phillips also hold concession rights in Somalia. According to the Los Angeles Times, “corporate and scientific documents disclosed that the American companies are well positioned to pursue Somalia’s most promising potential oil reserves the moment the nation is pacified,” - i.e. kill the "Islamofascists" and install a weak and pandering government that could never control its own resources well enough to compete with the Western global elite. “Somalia is of geostrategic interest to the Bush administration, and the focus of operations and policy since 2001,” writes Larry Chin. “This focus is a continuation of long-term policies of both the Clinton administration and the George H.W. Bush administrations. Somalia’s resources have been eyed by Western powers since the days of the British Empire.” “A new US cleansing of Somalian ‘tyranny’ would open the door for these US oil companies to map and develop the possibly huge oil potential in Somalia,” notes F. William Engdahl. “Yemen and Somalia are two flanks of the same geological configuration, which holds large potential petroleum deposits, as well as being the flanks of the oil chokepoint from the Red Sea.” Of course the American public will simply be told that we're after 'Al Qaeda' because of 9/11, and they will buy it again. No matter that operatives involved in the African bombings at the embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were admittedly working for the CIA. Nah, that's a side issue, LOOK AMERICA, Al Zawahiri said Somalia is Islamofascist, so we gotta bomb the hell out of it and control it's oil - just get used to it.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Last edited by The Telcontarion : 01-11-2007 at 03:10 AM. |
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01-11-2007, 02:15 PM | #65 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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For the future, I would appreciate it if you gave me the arguments in your own writing, rather than through either audio or lengthy articles . I'm going to respond to part of your article this time, but here is my view that I'll be holding to, for the future:
If you aren't going to take the time and effort to put your arguments in your own words, why should I take the time to do that myself? Why shouldn't I just respond to you by going to FOX News and giving you a long response article about the situation in Somalia, rather than taking the trouble to argue it myself? Quote:
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I'll focus more on responding to the rest of your post if the predictions in the earlier part of it come true. If the US sends ground troops of any significant number into Somalia, your argument will look stronger to me, and then I'll try to find time to respond to the rest of your article.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-11-2007 at 02:58 PM. |
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01-11-2007, 03:55 PM | #66 |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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Lief Erikson
I have to say I agree with you about the way I post, to a certain degree, to be sure it is not for a lack of want. In the past here I have spent hours posting replies that are miles long. You know I have been in many debates here. Besides I rather think that those links are more credible than my own opinion/thoughts/ideas and is appreciated by many here. However time doesn't allow me to do as I would like, but due to the importance of the topic I had to find a way communicate my thoughts without consuming to much of my time, therefore the links of audios articles etc. I just wanted to say that. I have not read all of your reply yet but I will; I can't promise that there won't be links in it though, sorry.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
01-11-2007, 04:31 PM | #67 | ||||||||
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Major General John Batiste commanded an Army division in Iraq before he retired and said in an interview that he thought the Defense Department needed "a fresh start." Quote:
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More… Army Major General Paul Eaton, who oversaw the training of Iraqi army troops in 2003 and 2004 before retiring, has been critical of Rumsfeld, as has Retired Marine Corps General Anthony Zinni, the former commander of CENTCOM, the Central Command. GEN. ANTHONY ZINNI, Former Commander, U.S. Central Command: Quote:
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Retired Marine Lieutenant General Gregory Newbold was director of operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff for two years until shortly before the Iraq invasion. In an opinion article in Time magazine, Newbold criticized Rumsfeld and other top officials for snuffing out dissenting voices, saying "The consequence of the military's quiescence was that a fundamentally flawed plan was executed for an invented war. And this is interesting...: Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 01-11-2007 at 04:34 PM. |
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01-12-2007, 07:48 PM | #68 | |||
Elf Lord
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Thanks for finding those citations for me.
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But that's just my guess as to how it works; I don't know for sure. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-13-2007 at 03:06 AM. |
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01-12-2007, 10:28 PM | #69 |
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All wars are motivated by self interest.
It's interesting that even in such an "advanced" nation as the United States, that one person still basically calls the shots where going to war is concerned. Democracy still has a long way to go.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
01-14-2007, 01:53 AM | #70 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-14-2007, 05:46 AM | #71 |
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I don't see why that couldn't be applied to the rest of the world as well.
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01-14-2007, 12:35 PM | #72 |
Elf Lord
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Religion can be a much more powerful influence on people's minds than self.
But there are other reasons for war too. Hannibal Barca started the Second Punic War for revenge against Rome, though it was against his and his country's interest.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
01-14-2007, 01:09 PM | #73 | ||
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-14-2007, 02:41 PM | #74 | |||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-15-2007, 01:35 AM | #75 |
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Oh, I'm so frustrated right now with the US position on the Israeli/Palestinian crisis. That is one of the major parts of the world where we could make an impact in this battle between Islamic extremism and the West, but we're only making matters worse through our policies in that region.
Favoring Israel against the Palestinians strengthens opposition to us and the West in general, in the Muslim world. Favoring Fatah against Hamas and engaging in an economic boycott on the Palestinians is probably a major contributor to the near civil war in the Palestinian territories. Right now, I'm considering the idea that we should probably open negotiations with Hamas, the elected government of the Palestinian people. If we do not, all the Middle East will probably continue to see the US as hypocritical in its call for democracy. Negotiating with Hamas also would prove to all parties that we are genuinely interested in peace in the Middle East. Perhaps negotiations would fail. It's very possible that they would fail. However, simply holding them may be a useful step forward in bringing back credibility to the US in the Middle East.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-15-2007 at 01:37 AM. |
01-15-2007, 12:27 PM | #76 | |
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01-15-2007, 12:57 PM | #77 | |
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I think that Osama bin Laden would be an excellent example of this. Muhammad would be another. Sorry I'm only mentioning Muslims as examples- it's just that as I've been reading about Islam, they are the first examples that spring to mind. I'm sure that there are many Christian leaders who gave up their lives or acted strongly against their own self-interest because of religion, during the religious wars.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-15-2007 at 01:25 PM. |
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01-15-2007, 01:25 PM | #78 |
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Christ would be one of them, I presume.
Lief, I congratulate you on recognising that the root of the problem lies principally in the Palestine situation. Of course, previous US presidents have also recognised this; Clinton got as far as the Oslo accord before getting bogged down in Kosovo and the Starr witchhunt. I always said that the one true opportunity Dubya had to change the situation was on this issue: as a conservative, he has the credentials to bring US conservatives along with him, and is more likely to be trusted by Israel. In fact, encouraging noises were made shortly after 9/11 and I hoped that there would be some action. However, I was disappointed. Maybe this time...? * doesn't hold breath * Last edited by The Gaffer : 01-15-2007 at 01:28 PM. |
01-15-2007, 01:40 PM | #79 | |
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Who's Dubya?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-15-2007 at 01:41 PM. |
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01-15-2007, 02:06 PM | #80 |
Elf Lord
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George Dubya Bush (phonetic!)
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