09-27-2006, 09:10 PM | #601 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
Quote:
Hmmmm....um, no. It's pretty obvious that human "interaction" is for the purpose of making people, and we can know -these days- how they develop within the mother. Not to get too sentimental, but there are some theories that classical music while a woman is pregnant helps calm the child...and added on to that, ask any mother whose child was a "kicker" whether they have a "mind" or personality. "Darn that clump of cells, it keeps kicking for more food!"
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
|
09-27-2006, 09:11 PM | #602 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Is it my dirty mind, or is 'human "interaction"' a euphemism?
*selfsmack* ANYWAY, personhood...
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
09-28-2006, 01:05 AM | #603 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||
09-28-2006, 01:24 AM | #604 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Lief, how bout you provide us with your account of what it means to be a person?
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
09-28-2006, 01:52 AM | #605 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
My view is that being "made in God's image" is what gives us personhood. So every human is a person, but no animal is. For God is the ultimate Person. The essence of personhood is the essence of being "made in God's image." So for me, the question could be rephrased as, "what is it to be made in God's image?"
For me, that would require a lot of very worthwhile Bible study that I haven't done yet. I don't know what it means to be made in God's image. But let us beware in our present conversation . . . this thread must not diverge into a religious detour . If one takes a non-religious definition of personhood, I think it is best to just define it as "any human." Because otherwise you judge some humans less persons than others, judging people based on their biology rather than their actions, and that gets very, very dangerous. It's treading in the same waters that have been treaded already by all racists, by many men who abuse and demand servitude from their wives, believing women to be less than them because of their biology, and by many murderers who have killed homosexuals and mentally disabled. That path leads straight into hell's gullet, to put it simply.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-28-2006 at 03:24 AM. |
09-28-2006, 05:01 AM | #606 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
I think the third trimester is problematic because the offspring can potentially survive outside of the mother's womb. I guess I think 'personhood' manifests itself gradually AFTER the baby is born, but by the third trimester, it becomes a lot harder to consider the unborn as merely a mass of cells.
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
09-28-2006, 09:43 AM | #607 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|
09-28-2006, 11:54 AM | #608 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
A woman has a two-year-old child. The father has deserted her; she is young, poverty-stricken, with no prospects for a steady job, no health care or ability to provide for her child properly. She decides to hire a hit man and have her child killed.
A woman is pregnant in her first trimester.The father has deserted her; she is young, poverty-stricken, with no prospects for a steady job, no health care or ability to provide for her child properly. She goes to a clinic and has an abortion. In the first case, I think we'd all agree that the woman (found clinically sane) should spend a long time in prison. Those who support the death penalty might say that she should be executed for such a crime. So, for those who say a fetus is a child, a woman who has an abortion should also be imprisoned for years, or perhaps executed. If not, why not?
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
09-28-2006, 01:31 PM | #609 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Because a two year old isnt a three week old fetus?
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
09-28-2006, 02:20 PM | #610 |
The Blobbit
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...)
Posts: 1,596
|
Nor are you a two year old.
__________________
Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
09-28-2006, 02:42 PM | #611 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Some would disagree with that at times
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
09-28-2006, 02:47 PM | #612 |
The Blobbit
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...)
Posts: 1,596
|
Well fine then.
But you appreciate that saying a foetus in not a child because they're not the same, is equivalent to saying that an adult is not a child, because they are also not the same. The point about the significant, morality determining rites of passage which lie between those points still has to be argued.
__________________
Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
09-28-2006, 02:49 PM | #613 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
A first trimester child is developing all its major organs. It doesn't have them all yet, but it's developing them. Who are we to say when a human being is primitive enough to be ethically killed?
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-28-2006 at 02:55 PM. |
|
09-28-2006, 02:51 PM | #614 | |||
Friendly Neigborhood Sith Lord
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 2,080
|
Quote:
obviously the two year old is bigger, more developed and in a different enviroment, and less dependant a month old fetus but so am I more developed than that two year old.
__________________
I was Press Secretary for the Berlioz administration and also, but not limited to, owner and co operator of fully armed and operational battle station EDDIE Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
09-28-2006, 03:15 PM | #615 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
|
09-28-2006, 03:34 PM | #616 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
Quote:
During wartime we take actions that we know will kill innocents (sometimes even babies) in the name of a greater good. None of us think it is okay, and we certainly try to avoid it, but we accept it as necessary in certain situations. Many will argue as to whether there are other choices, but very few dismiss the option entirely. It is the same with abortion. Some people weigh the pros and cons of abortion vs. bringing a child into a situation where they will be unwelcome and maybe even hated by their parent. They judge that the life the child would be subjected to is worse than not living at all. Much like how, during war, the attacker decides that the loss of some innocent lives is acceptable to protect the lives and well-being of others. You can argue about where the line is drawn, but all of us, even yourself, draws that line in one situation or another that involves innocent life, whether you admit it or not.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
||
09-28-2006, 03:35 PM | #617 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Then the racists are justified. They judge people of other ethnic groups to be less developed than they are, and you say they have the right to do that. You also say that they have the right to draw that line, killing people who we think are inferior. The Nazis even used scientific data, though in hindsight, we can see that it was certainly played with and biased (as I think much of our scientific data on abortion is, for the sake of political correctness). You say that all kinds of the sickest people in humanity are justified when you say that we can judge people based on their biological development rather than by their actions. Your statement about connection with the mother is just absurd. I can't understand why this biological life support mechanism means the mother has the right to kill her child. It doesn't make the slightest bit of logical sense.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|
09-28-2006, 03:57 PM | #618 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
With war, we do everything we can to avoid innocent deaths. With our justice system, we do everything we can to avoid the innocent being condemned. With our medical practices, we do all we can to prevent death. We know that sometimes accidents on the doctors' parts will happen that will result in death. We do everything we can to minimize the amount that this happens. Until abortion. With abortion, the situation is could not be more different. We do not do everything we can to prevent the loss of innocent life, like we do with the other three forementioned. Rather, we legalize a mass slaughter of the innocents. "Everything that can be done to prevent innocent death" is not being done, like it is in the other three cases. Rather, we purposely kill off the innocents even though they are not threatening life- only lifestyle. Here's the bottom line. With war, we do all we can to avoid killing innocents. We know that innocents will die, but we do all we can to avoid innocent deaths. With abortion, we purposely kill the innocents. Thus the two are completely different.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-28-2006 at 04:31 PM. |
||
09-28-2006, 04:22 PM | #619 | ||||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
Having an abortion, in my mind, is comparable (to a point anyway) to having your spleen removed. It's a big deal, and a serious operation, where you remove part of your body. After that the comparison falls apart. Quote:
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
09-28-2006, 05:06 PM | #620 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
I argue that you can be part of someone else's body and still your own person. Most mothers would tell you so as well, from their experiences with their children in the womb. Quote:
By removing your spleen, you're also not killing anyone. The baby is alive, though. I agree that "it's a big deal, and a serious operation, where you remove part of your body." But you're right also that after that the comparison falls apart, and the places where the two are different are very, very significant .
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Religion and Individualism | Beren3000 | General Messages | 311 | 04-17-2012 10:07 PM |
Abortion and Handguns | Aeryn | General Messages | 256 | 01-31-2003 01:39 AM |
Abortion | Gwaimir Windgem | General Messages | 9 | 01-28-2003 11:05 PM |
Let Gandalf smite the Abortion thread! | Gilthalion | General Messages | 7 | 08-27-2000 02:52 PM |
Abortion | dmaul97 | Entmoot Archive | 83 | 08-27-2000 01:25 PM |