09-22-2006, 02:51 PM | #81 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Yep, he don't want nobody in the M.E. but Muslims.
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09-22-2006, 11:29 PM | #82 | |
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fled the country in 1949. This would be the ideal situation, but it's not going to happen- the Palestinians are going to have to settle for the crumbs in a two-state solution Whether he means what he says, or whether he really would like to see all the Jews driven into the sea is another matter (never trust a Holocaust denier), but that is what he is saying. |
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09-23-2006, 12:10 AM | #83 | |
Elf Lord
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I agree, GreyMouser.
As for myself, I tend to take Ahmadinejad on his word when he says that he'd like to see Israel wiped out. He's funding Islamic extremism, and he is an Islamic extremist himself. He is in complete accord with Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, and Khamenei is very, very vociferous in his rhetoric against the US. Khamenei called for attacks on the United States in response to the pope's comments, for example. Quote:
Personally, I don't really believe he's likely to attack Israel once he has his nuclear weapon (though he might). I suspect he's more likely to hold that over Israel and the surrounding nations as a weapon that cripples Western influence in the Middle East.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-23-2006 at 12:25 AM. |
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09-23-2006, 08:01 AM | #84 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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If you don't like the media reporting you disappearing people, holding them indefinitely without charge, killing them, torturing them or shipping them off to be tortured on your behalf, then DON"T DO IT! .... Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101994_pf.html File the Bin Laden Phone Leak Under 'Urban Myths' As for why he was lost track of: Quote:
IOTW, if the Bush Adminstration had ever been serious about the War on Terror, instead of using it as an excuse to do what it wanted to do anyway i.e. invade Iraq... Quote:
The person responsible for revealing the CIA's top undercover agent working on Iraq's WMD programs was... Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage...maybe. Karl Rove and Scooter Libby were also deeply involved in trying to expose her. Originally it was thought that this was simply revenge for her husband ( former ambassador Joseph Wilson) blowing the Administration's BS story about Niger uranium; now it looks it may have been an attempt by Cheney to discredit the CIA for failing to find the (non-existent) Iraqi WMDs that Cheney's OSP, relying on Iraqi exiles, was insisting were there. Quote:
"Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. " "Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe. "
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 09-23-2006 at 08:04 AM. |
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09-23-2006, 12:04 PM | #85 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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Abuses by soldiers under pressure in war are bound to happen. But when the mass media spreads them all over the world, everyone gets mad at the isolated incidents. I was thinking of Abu Ghraib, Norway's comic strip, the pope's comments, President Bush's suggestion that we were on a "crusade." You're right that many US policy decisions also are angering people, and I do not argue that that's the media's fault. Those were calculated choices of what the administration believes is best for our people. I have not had the charges of torture proven to me to my satisfaction, personally. In fact, I tend to believe that the US is actually not committing torture, and I'll explain why. It's essentially because I trust Senator John McCain's views when it comes to torture. Here's why I do: Quote:
Having the meaning of the Geneva Convention clarified at this time is extremely important. Our interrogators have to know what they can and can't do in a clear way, or they'll be unable to act. My feeling is also that if President Bush feels he needs to get government approval for his interrogation policies, rather than just committing them without legal authority in Guantanamo or other places, then he isn't torturing. For if he's already using even illegal and more rigorous methods elsewhere, why would he fight so hard for legal ones that won't do as much good? Granted, I may be wrong on this. But as far as I'm concerned, if Senator McCain thinks these interrogation methods are acceptable, then they are. It's a matter of trust to me, but I think that trusting in this way is very logical. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-25-2006, 04:39 AM | #86 | |||
Elf Lord
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Lief, I see nothing in the sources that you cite to contradict what I said:
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You have conflated the issues again: because Ahmedinejad regards Israel as an occupying force, and therefore illegitimate state, he must have said that all Jews should be killed. Are you saying that those translators in the Guardian were wrong? Why do you think they were not reported in more right-wing media? I think you really should question this deeply. You are being manipulated. Quote:
Think about that for a moment. Seen in that context, it is surprising how mild the reaction has been, really. What would US politicians be saying if China had invaded Canada on a false pretext? Are you saying it is the New York Times's fault that you haven't caught bin Laden? Surely you are not serious about that. |
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09-25-2006, 11:52 AM | #87 | |||
Elf Lord
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What I posted strongly contradicted what you said, Gaffer. I cited Middle East news sources which quoted him the same way the mainstream press did. They would have had Farsi speakers amongst them- no miscommunication is likely at all there. I quoted Ahmadinejad's own website, which said that Israel would be "wiped away." I cited other times that Ahmadinejad said the same thing, and I know of no translation arguments in those comments. I cited his defense of the words "Israel will be wiped off the map," in which he rejected the world's criticism as "invalid," and according to the mainstream newspapers, stood by his claims. It's not just the conservative papers that say this- there isn't any mainstream paper but the Guardian that makes the claims you have just cited. Everyone in the world disagrees with the Guardian! All the major nations, all the major papers, (including in the Middle East). Ahmadinejad's own website confirms this translation of his words, and he has made other statements that say that Israel is a "rotten tree that one storm will sweep aside." He this will happen "soon" through "attacks." All this I posted and cited in my other post. All of it contradicts yours .
Yes, I'm saying that the Guardian is wrong. It's an ultra-liberal paper and a place to which strongly liberal Farsi speakers would rally. Quote:
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The intelligence that Iraq was developing WMDs was very good. This is apparent by the fact that about 90% of Democrats voted for the war in Congress, in addition to the Republicans. Both sides of the political spectrum must have been duped in a huge and extremely well developed and sophisticated lie, for you to be right. This is our entire Congress, some of the most professional people we have. The fact that they were all so fully convinced, and the majority of the American public as well, shows that our best information at that time said that Saddam had WMDs in Iraq. Hence, based upon the choices available to us at that time, the best possible decision available to us was to invade. Invasion has had many negative reprecussions. Leaving WMDs in the hands of Saddam (assuming that our intelligence was correct) would have been an even worse move. As we haven't found any WMDs in Iraq, it appears we may have made a big mistake. But it was the best decision we could have made at the time, given the intelligence we had available to us. We thought they had WMDs because our best intelligence information said they did, so we had to go in. And now we're faced with another situation again. We could pull out of Iraq now and leave it to Al'Qaeda and Iran, or we can stick it out and try to preserve the democracy we have created until its army is strong enough that it can defend itself. The second option is more painful in the short term, but the other would be far more painful in the long term. Hence, staying in Iraq is the right decision, just as going into Iraq in the first place was the best decision we had at the time. None of these decisions is a good one. Every option is a bad option. But we have to pick the best of the many bad options, and I think staying is the one we're taking. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-25-2006, 11:59 AM | #88 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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"L" , some will never acknowledge the truth; some will never believe the truth; others do not want to know the truth.
It's an uphill battle; don't give up.
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09-25-2006, 12:37 PM | #89 | |
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09-25-2006, 02:10 PM | #90 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Obviously less.
Hello, GM! Good to see you again.
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09-25-2006, 04:27 PM | #91 | |
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Which is why I wonder
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09-25-2006, 08:35 PM | #92 | |
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09-25-2006, 08:36 PM | #93 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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BTW, you inserted an extra comma into my other post, you hack editor!
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09-25-2006, 08:43 PM | #94 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I see that post was edited; I suspect you didn't catch it at first.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
09-25-2006, 08:45 PM | #95 | |
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I was going to spare you...but
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09-25-2006, 09:55 PM | #96 |
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Likely story.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
09-27-2006, 08:22 AM | #97 |
Elf Lord
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Lief, everything in those statements is consistent with my proposition that Ahmedinejad was referring to the perceived illegitimacy of the Israeli state.
The fact that this has been seized upon by both sides to demonise/sanctify his status as a crude figurehead of the enemy/righteous, exactly as is his intention, is beyond irony. I have no idea what "ultra-liberal" means. The Guardian, in this article, attempts to shed light upon the mass manipulation of people's perceptions. Further, the newspaper contains a greater spectrum of opinion than you would imagine, from hard left to soft right. |
09-27-2006, 08:44 AM | #98 | ||
Elf Lord
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(Do you know how long Congress members were given to read the Patriot Act before they had to vote on it?) It was proven to be wrong, and thousands of people died, and continue to die as a result; terrorism got worse, by your own agencies' admission: therefore it was bad. In fact, of course, there was contradictory evidence from non-lunatic sources (remember Chalabi), the Bush Administration just decided to ignore it. This is why no war had ever been launched before based on intelligence: it's very often wrong. Quote:
You'll have noticed that things have taken a turn for the worse in Afghanistan recently, with the Taliban resurgent. If we are serious about nation-building in these places, better not plan to go anywhere fast. Meanwhile, our military is tied down in unwinnable wars. Now, what's that Oliver Hardy catchphrase I'm trying to recall...? |
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09-27-2006, 11:37 AM | #99 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
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And I know there were people who objected to the war from the beginning, but these were not the Congress, some of the most highly professional people there are. They looked at the evidence and judged Saddam to be developing WMDs because the evidence looked very strong. Quote:
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But anyway, I disagree with your whole main point. Waiting for them to attack us first means that we let them gather more and more power. We let them become their maximum threat before we take them on. Taking them out early is far better. Quote:
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The Taliban has actually been taking a rather significant beating. They lost over 1000 men over the course of the summer. But I know that the fact that they support the Afghanistan economy of opium production means they'll get a lot of popular support. For that reason, taking them out will be a difficult job. Not undoable though, if we have the determination. Many times, the West simply lacks the determination to see a thing through. We aren't willing to take casualties, and thus we become easy prey to Islamic militants who are. This is the public in the West I'm talking about, specifically the populations of Israel, Britain and the US. I expect that kind of feeling pervades the whole of the West though. Meanwhile, the Islamic militants don't care how many of them die. They're willing to accept very substantial losses. That makes them more dangerous than us. Our troops are highly trained and motivated. There is nothing wrong with our army- they are fully capable of taking on these militants and winning. But the Western public is not so strong as they are. That weakness really disgusts me, especially when I look at the wars nations have fought throughout history. The causes of wars that people won were the ones they were willing to pay a heavy price for. "Give me liberty or give me death!" was a rallying cry in the colonies at the time of the Revolution. That is a tough spirit to break. But we expect cheap solutions and easy answers to all our problems now. Meanwhile, we fight an enemy who will do what it takes to destroy us. That is why we're not likely to win, in the end. If the US had a firm resolve, we would win.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-27-2006 at 11:43 AM. |
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09-28-2006, 12:01 PM | #100 | |
Elf Lord
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 09-28-2006 at 12:03 PM. |
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