02-15-2006, 09:10 PM | #601 | |
Elf Lord
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Jesus said that he is the fulfillment of the Law. He also said that the Law, Prophets and Psalms were pointing toward him. They were fulfilled in him. Thus many things that were picture-portrayed then are now given to us in their fullness. For example, the Law is full of information about what is clean and what is unclean. You may not do this, for it is unclean, but you may do this, for it is clean. This is a mass scale symbolism of sin vs. purity. People are removed from the camp for uncleanness, just as sin is unacceptable in the kingdom of God. People who are clean are accepted in the camp, just as people who are spiritually clean are welcome into eternity. This goes for diseases and all sorts of things in the Law. They're symbols of what has now been fulfilled. They're pictures for us. Circumcision also is a picture for us. It is the picture of being set apart from God. It is a symbol that has been literally fulfilled, for as Jesus enters people they are, "in the world, but not of the world." They are set apart for God. The sacrifice of animals also is a symbol, a picture image for us of the sacrifice of Jesus. And the curtain between people and the ark of the covenant is representative of the spiritual veil that blinds people's eyes from God. This literal physical veil was ripped in half when Jesus died for us, according to the New Testament. This symbolized the fact that everyone now has been offered direct access to the divine. The Law has been literally fulfilled in Jesus' coming. It isn't abolished, but it is fulfilled. Physical circumcision thus is no longer necessary. It is a guidepost that was pointing toward the reality that is now among us. Animal sacrifice is no longer necessary, for this was a guidepost pointing to the reality in Jesus that has been fulfilled among us. We aren't bogged down in endless laws about physical cleanliness, for these pictures were fulfilled in the spiritual cleanliness that Jesus gives upon entering our lives.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-16-2006, 03:45 PM | #602 | |
Enting
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There are those in the world who do not understand that our time is limited and so they wast it but in the end when they stand before god the will realize what a mistake they made. |
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02-16-2006, 05:01 PM | #603 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-17-2006, 11:38 AM | #604 |
Elf Lord
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Hey, IR, did you see my post #600 ?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
02-17-2006, 02:15 PM | #605 | |
Elf Lord
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Rather like this, on occasion when I have heard the word from the Lord through the Bible, I will ask, "is this really you speaking?" And then I will flip the pages randomly, and will come several times in a row to different verses that all say, "this is what the Lord says," or, "I tell you the truth," or, "Jesus said," all sorts of things along that line. So we do get confirmation. The Lord lets us know that it is really him speaking to us by tweaking circumstances or speaking to other believers and confirming the word through them. He has many ways of letting us know that it's him speaking. If it's a doctrinal issue also, and there is division, sometimes the elders will just trust in the Lord and wait for a period, listening. Then they will reunite and find that they are all in agreement. There are so many ways in which the Lord works like this. But it's not a human who gives the directions, or shouldn't be. It's really bad when a pastor or any earthly human takes over for God. The scripture says that believers are all one body, and Christ is its head. Christ therefore is the brain, the controlling will of the body. The body in all its many parts functions and works together, receiving its messages from him. So this is actually God speaking to us, leading us and giving us unity. Once a Christian believer in a potluck (I read about this account, but it's been thoroughly researched) saw a vision of Jesus telling her, "today you will be reunited with your son." She'd been separated from him since he was a young child. She followed the directions the Holy Spirit gave her, and went several miles to a large building. Outside the building, behind a tree, was her son, and they were reunited. Can you see how that incident would not be a fallible human but actually God? Another example would be Brother Andrew. Brother Andrew is a Christian who has gone on countless Bible smuggling expeditions into Communist countries where the Bible is not allowed. He did that a lot during the Cold War, and one trademark that he always does to trust in God rather than in people is put some of the illegal Bibles on the chair beside him in plain sight when he passes a checkpoint, so that he will be entirely dependent on God and not his own devices. He founded the Open Doors ministry, which has now trained thousands of pastors and church leaders worldwide, and also provides millions of Bibles each year to those who need them in far off countries. Many of those who have worked with Brother Andrew have done the same thing when smuggling Bibles, putting some of them in plain sight. They have had enormous success, which is why Open Doors changed from just Brother Andrew working alone in this way, and has turned into a large organization. The point is that the Lord is in charge of these operations. These are the Lord's activities, and as the head of his people, he gives them instructions and sorts out the details. God can utterly amaze us by what he does with us and through us. He is the Head, and he has given us his Counselor to speak to us about the contents of the Bible as well. As one Christian has said, "sometimes I would hear things from the Lord that seemed totally contradictory to the scripture, yet when I looked more closely, I saw that they were simply debunking incorrect views I had had about the scripture." The Holy Spirit was the guide and leader. This leads automatically to the question: "Why is it, then, that there have been massive, violent, bloody wars between Christians over Biblical interpretation? Wars that have seen people racked and tortured to death in unspeakable barbarity, and have seen thousands of deaths throughout the 16th and 17th centuries?" Here's part of the answer: There are a lot of people who claim to be Christians but don't have a relationship with Jesus, though. Often through their behavior they shame us. Also, real Christians sometimes sin and fall short. They add to this disappointment. Here's another part of the answer: There isn't always just one interpretation that is correct. There are many truths that can be found from one verse. Sometimes one person will hear the Lord tell him one truth through it, and another person will hear the Lord tell him a different truth. They will both have heard truly, but they will butt heads because they have different interpretations. Someone else might have access to both truths and a fuller perspective, and will see that they actually aren't contradictory. This is one reason why I do not reject the Catholic perspective on Communion. That's because of a word the Lord gave me about conflicts of interpretation, in a dream one night, after I had spent weeks debating with Gwaimir Windgem (an Entmooter and friend) about the correct interpretation of Communion. This might seem a "liberal's" perspective. I agree that it is one place in which I am more of a liberal. That there might be several answers does not mean to me that any answer is valid, however. If an "answer" that someone comes up with is contrary to what is clearly written in God's Word, it must be discarded. The Bible must be interpreted literally, also. There might be symbolic and metaphoric meanings in parts as well, but a literal interpretation is necessary. If one says that things aren't to be interpreted literally, one can interpret anything any way he or she wants, separating themselves from their Head and indulging all their fantasies about the state of the physical and spiritual realities.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-17-2006, 02:44 PM | #606 |
Enting
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Just be carfull what you say because im catholic.
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There are those in the world who do not understand that our time is limited and so they wast it but in the end when they stand before god the will realize what a mistake they made. |
02-17-2006, 02:56 PM | #607 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-17-2006, 03:07 PM | #608 | ||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-17-2006, 04:31 PM | #609 | |||||
Elf Lord
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A lot of Christians who are very good people by the world's standards are not in personal relationships with Jesus. These people would not hear from the Counselor, but would use logic and their own beliefs, and remain stuck in their own thoughts, without direct access to God's thoughts. Quote:
For fun, let's look at the Christian perspective of the death penalty for a moment. I know I'm flying off topic; this is for no reason except intellectual stimulation . When God gave the Law to Moses on Mount Sinai, it said, "do not murder." If when God said "do not murder," he meant, "never kill anyone," he plainly is a very self-contradictory God. Here are other words of the Lord passed down to Moses: Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 02-17-2006 at 05:44 PM. |
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02-17-2006, 05:51 PM | #610 |
The Intermittent One
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can i just ask those who follow any of the numerous jedeo-christian religions, denominations and sects, if there is the whole 'do not murder/kill/whatever', where stand you on war? as one who follows the teachings of the buddha, i will not kill another, for any reason whatsoever
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02-17-2006, 07:35 PM | #611 | ||
Elf Lord
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That is why our police officers must be armed. Criminals must be aware that they cannot take an axe one night and decide to exterminate thousands. There must be a law, and there must be the power to see justice done. Otherwise, we must be prepared to endure a world of unspeakable horror and cruelty, and must submit our children to being the slaves and victims of tyrants. You may think I'm blowing things out of proportion, but I'm not. If we stop using weapons, that doesn't mean criminals will. We can expect certain death for multitudes if our governments cede the right of defense. Forget that . . . the entire world would right now be living under the rule of Adolf Hitler or one of his successors. Except the Jews. There wouldn't be any of them left. This is not an appealing picture, but it is what the world would look like if its decent folk ceased their willingness to act in violence. As Sam said in the LoTR movie, "there's some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it's worth fighting for!" Quote:
I don't think any of these courses of action would scare people like Hitler or Ahmadinejad into restraining themselves , but I am curious what your views are on this.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-17-2006, 07:39 PM | #612 |
The Intermittent One
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as i said i can not kill another, not hurt, not defend myself against, but i will not KILL, police etc using justifiable force to restrain someone is onething, killing, and then finding out they had got it wrong is another (i cite the case of Jean Charles de Menezes)
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02-17-2006, 08:14 PM | #613 | |
Elf Lord
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And no amount of tear gas would have stopped Hitler, you know.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 02-17-2006 at 08:19 PM. |
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02-21-2006, 02:35 PM | #614 | |||||
Quasi Evil
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So can you not see how this and other references could be powerful guides for christians who believe that killing (even self defense apparently) is wrong? This gets to my whole point about interpretation. Theres so much ambiguity going on in the bible. It never slaps you over the head with anything. So to call people who believe differently then you not good christians strikes me as highly misguided.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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04-22-2006, 05:26 PM | #615 | |
Elf Lord
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I just read the beginning of Genesis 1... I have a question to Christians, Jews or anyone who believes in the Bible: is it just me or that it says the sky is made of water? Or am I just misinterpreting it?
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04-22-2006, 05:31 PM | #616 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
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It's you. Everyone knows the sky is made of blue cheese.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
04-22-2006, 05:45 PM | #617 |
the Shrike
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When my brother asked why the sky was blue I told him it was blue M & Ms. Gullible fool.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
04-22-2006, 05:53 PM | #618 | |||
Elf Lord
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Pay special attention to the last of these three paragraphs. Quote:
This also ties directly to verse 9, which says: Quote:
The verse from Genesis says that dry ground was created after the waters. In the same way, scientific research says that the world was covered in a global ocean 2 miles deep, and there was no dry land. Dry land must have come second, just as the Bible says. Here the Lord also said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place." Even so, in Earth's past, the waters of the world all were in one place, surrounding the supercontinent Pangea. I love how brilliantly several parts of Genesis Chapter 1 are confirmed by modern science. Of course, I think science still has some catch up to do, on other things. Science is always changing, and as it continues to change, it continues to embrace more and more of what the Bible says. It may not accept all the Biblical account now, but it accepts much of it. Anyway, continue and enjoy your Genesis reading .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-22-2006 at 05:58 PM. |
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04-26-2006, 09:57 AM | #619 | |
Elf Lord
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this was the up-to-date cosmology of the recorded story. It is a tad different from modern cosmology, as you have noticed. The separation of the land from the waters above and below is an image of God controlling Chaos. Hope this helps.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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04-26-2006, 10:24 AM | #620 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-26-2006 at 10:26 AM. |
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