11-28-2005, 09:58 PM | #1 | |
Elf Lord
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Torture- Never, or sometimes?
Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-28-2005, 10:10 PM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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permitted by whom?
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11-29-2005, 02:36 AM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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Governments.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
11-29-2005, 02:42 AM | #4 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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I'm more of a "Means shape the Ends" person than a "Ends justify the Means" person, so I would say Never.
Those who think to gain something at the expense of what they truly think is right... seem more likely to lose what they think they have. I believe it's illusional to think that by torture one can achieve a greater good.
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11-29-2005, 06:55 AM | #5 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Torture? A big fat NO.
For one, I have huge doubts whether one can be sure that a confession or info given under torture is correct. In the end people will want to tell anything to make it stop. The idea of torture to gain intel or confessions always makes me immediately think of the witch-trails. Fat lot of good that that sort of torture do. Not to mention that torture creates more resentment among your enemies and will make it harder to make peace later. It's one thing to make peace with someone who has been killing your civilians and soldiers. It is quite another to make peace with someone who has been torturing and dehumanising your people. Torture destroys more than IMO it can ever gain. IMO, torture is that barbaric and something that should squarely reside in our past. People can always tell you lies, torture is not going to change that. You only lose your humanity while practising it. And I'm not sure if any info you can gather will be worth that. Secondly, I think it is an utterly inacceptable practise if we have the nerve to call ourself civilised people. In the western world, we moved past the age of barbarianism, I may hope. And now we willfully return there? No, no, no, that will not do. A good number of countries have signed treaties against torture, if we consider ourselves human beings, I expect we hold that promise. Because 'the enemy is doing it' is no excuse. If we cannot even hold the promise not to use torture, seriously, what claim can we lay on the word "civilised"? (Apologies if my post came over a bit too strongly or aggresively, but this is a topic about which I have very strong feelings.)
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11-29-2005, 10:12 AM | #6 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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never
and i think Eärniel laid out all the reasons very well
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
11-29-2005, 02:26 PM | #7 |
Quasi Evil
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Yes well spoken Earniel. There is never a time when torture is a useful tool. And we are the worlds biggest hypocrites for decrying how uncivilized torture is and then turning around and quietly passing people we want tortured off to torture camps in other countries. You cant have it both ways.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
11-29-2005, 03:32 PM | #8 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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Torture strips a person of his/her human dignity. It must never be allowed.
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11-29-2005, 06:15 PM | #9 |
of the House of Fëanor
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I can't believe this is even a question anybody would ever think about debating. NO, torture is disgusting, and is NEVER, never, NEVER right, NO - MATTER - WHAT. EVER. EVER.
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11-30-2005, 12:48 AM | #10 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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By the way, everyone, I'm not taking a side on this issue. My opinions are not firmly established on this matter yet, one way or the other. Although that may seem extremely immoral of me, I feel a need to work my way through some of these ethical issues. I'm simply interested in playing devil's advocate here for a while, in order the better to understand this matter through the ensuing discussion. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-30-2005 at 12:55 AM. |
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11-30-2005, 01:28 AM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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By the way, Jonathon, I actually don't believe that torture does strip the victim of his or her human dignity. It definitely can, however, strip the torturer of his or her human dignity. When I read the account of Jesus' torment before the crucifixion, or when I watch Mel Gibson's "The Passion", my impression is that the torturers rather than the victim lost all human dignity.
On the other hand, I have seen other films in which a good cop unwillingly tortures a villain, because they need the information now, and an innocent life is at stake. I would like to watch those movies with some of you, to see what your reaction is. How many of you have seen . . . om . . . Tom Clancy's . . . uh . . . (looks up the title) "Patriot Games"? Or the Rupert Everet new Sherlock Holmes movie? Sure, they are just films, but the scenario they present is realistic. In one of Robert Jordan's books, the main character tortures an opponent because innocent lives are at stake. The character then has an interesting conversation with another individual, and the perspective that came out of that dialogue was, "if one enjoys the violence, it is time to stop." Might that be the case with both war and torture? These are fiction accounts I'm citing, I know, and I assure you, I don't form my judgment on a matter such as this from watching movies. However, they are interesting and can cause one to really think about these matters.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
11-30-2005, 02:32 AM | #12 |
Hobbit in the Music
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I'm not sure if I can say that it should absolutely NEVER be used, because there's an exception to every rule and there might possibly be a situation in wartime or organized crime where that is the only option. But I am certainly against it in principle. I think that (if possible) every other option should be attempted before one resorts to torture. There are different types of torture, too, just as there are different types of abuse.
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11-30-2005, 10:28 AM | #13 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons and daughters of God." is a pretty strong statement... i'm sure you know biblical text better than i do, but i can't think of any point where jesus says war is ever justified... and absence of such a statement is condemnation by default in light of all his other teachings as for ghandi, a quote that is quite relavent even today: Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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11-30-2005, 11:26 AM | #14 | |||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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Jesus and Gandhi never condemned insider dealing, stem cell research or cheating at poker either. If looking to philosophy as a basis, one has to adhere to the spirit, not the letter of the law. Nice quotes, BJ. EDIt: just wanted to add an appreciation to Lief for bringing this up. It is being done, in our name, as we discuss this. Last edited by The Gaffer : 11-30-2005 at 11:28 AM. |
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11-30-2005, 12:01 PM | #15 | ||
of the House of Bëor
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*takes long deep breath to encourage herself before posting in such a serious topic, hoping she would be able to get her thoughts through*
Gaffer, basically I wanted to quote the same sentences you did... so all I can say is Word! to those quotes. And Word! for Lief bringing this up. The NO in my mind has always been obvious, but became even stronger after our history teacher took us to an exhibition called the House of Terrors, in 4th grade high school... I'd better quote from their website, about the building itself and its brief history... Quote:
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(Look here, if you want to... the exhibition's website, about the prisons.)
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I'm good in bed - I can sleep for days Last edited by littleadanel : 11-30-2005 at 12:02 PM. |
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11-30-2005, 12:31 PM | #16 |
Elf Lord
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Interesting post.
I remember a documentary on how you train torturers. The first step in is to torture them. To equip someone to strip people of their dignity you first have to strip them of their dignity. Where does this leave people who condone torture? |
11-30-2005, 02:31 PM | #17 | ||
Quasi Evil
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Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-30-2005, 03:58 PM | #18 | ||
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
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Quote:
Would you rather be tortured than imprisoned for life? Would you rather be tortured than executed? Personally I'm against both the death penalty and life imprisonment (ie imprisonment without any chance of getting your sentence reduced), but I find torture far far worse than both of them. Torture violates your dignity a lot more than the other two, imo. Quote:
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An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ Last edited by Jonathan : 11-30-2005 at 04:01 PM. |
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11-30-2005, 05:36 PM | #19 | ||
Friendly Neigborhood Sith Lord
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the effectiveness of torture is fairly unproven anyway, i mean people going under true torture (as in saddam style torture, not being forced to listen to britney spears torture) would say anything to make it stop, your intel probably wouldn't be that good, certainly wouldn't work in the "ticking bomb" scenario.
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Last edited by rohirrim TR : 11-30-2005 at 05:38 PM. |
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11-30-2005, 10:58 PM | #20 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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Okay . . . forgive me if I don't have time to respond to everyone.
Insidious Rex, yes, technical reasons are certainly reasons not to torture. However, my purpose in this thread (perhaps not made clear in the title, though certainly in my opening statements in the thread) is to discuss the ethical issues. Quote:
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I read one account from Pliny the Younger, as he described his efforts in torturing Christians. He talked about them as terrible animals, people who stood firm by their beliefs. To me, those Christians were incredibly dignified. Their response to evil proved their dignity beyond all question. So the fact that you are treating someone like an animal does not make that person an animal- it makes you an animal. Quote:
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Hmm. What do you all think? Should we expand the thread to encompass the practicalities as well as the ethics? I can't play devil's advocate with the practicalities very effectively, unfortunately, because I just don't know enough. Quote:
I don't know that someone has to be evil to be willing to torture. I really don't know that. Quote:
You're seeking to mention things that are exclusively modern examples, purposely, but I don't see why you're doing so. War was a current issue to both Jesus and Gandhi. Quote:
It is evident from many of his words that Jesus believed he was God, the same God as was present throughout the Old Testament. God as seen in the Old Testament undoubtedly believed that war could at times be necessary. Jesus' close followers believed that war could at times be just. They believed that Jesus himself would return from heaven to lead a violent war against the Antichrist and the sinful people of the Earth (see Revelation). That we have should seek peace does not mean that we are to never fight. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-30-2005 at 11:00 PM. |
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