09-06-2005, 04:21 PM | #1121 | |
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SETI scientists look for hallmarks of intelligent life based upon the one's we see on our own planet arbitrary means the "hallmarks" are intellectualized... arrived at not through observation, or even implication through observation, but through philosophy
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09-06-2005, 09:07 PM | #1122 | |
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And what did you think of my little quote from TalkOrigins? Apparently they think "Science" can make conclusions about it! (Gaffer - I moved our discussion over to the Origins and Implications of Origins thread - hope to see you there! )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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09-06-2005, 09:11 PM | #1123 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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09-06-2005, 11:44 PM | #1124 |
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It was an over the top dramatic spin on a news story from the point of view of a creationist body who has a monster bias in the process. There werent any FACTS. You said it was full of FACTS. Facts would be scientific evidence for creationsim. Those werent in there. This was a rally to arms for other creationists (woops i mean intelligent designerists...). Not a display of facts.
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09-07-2005, 12:37 AM | #1125 | |||
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Here's a FACT - "Dr. Gonzalez, a senior fellow of Discovery Institute, is internationally known among astronomers and cosmologists as an expert on the astrophysical requirements for habitability and on habitable zones." Here's another FACT - "The Des Moines Register reports that faculty members have “accused Gonzalez of having a hidden religious agenda” and “fingering him as an academic fraud.” " (assuming the Register checked their quotes) and here's another stinkin' FACT - "...a small number of faculty at Iowa State University have organized a petition denouncing intelligent design as unscientific and urged the university community to essentially ban the theory from campus." Now am I right or am I right, buster?! Sheesh! Would you stop being so defensive with what I say and READ what I say, please. Please! If you recall, the main thrust of this thread was not about scientific evidence, anyway. When did I say it was about creationism FACTS? Nowhere. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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09-07-2005, 10:36 AM | #1126 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Facts are nothing more than what a group of people believe. Therefore belief becomes subjective and is a valid system for answering certain questions.
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09-07-2005, 01:05 PM | #1127 | |||
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take your arrowhead example... while it is quite unlikely for one to have formed naturally, it is not impossible... in fact, out of the millions we have found, it is not impossible that a handful are actually natural in occurance on top of that, we can judge whether or not an arrowhead is "designed" because we can physically take two rocks and try to make one as an experiment... it doesn't mean the caveman made it the same way... it means he could have there is no such test for creation... we do not see pure creation of the kind god is supposed to be able to perform even on a small scale, so how can we possibly have hallmarks? we can claim that some things might be hallmarks of human design... but claiming godlike design is simply without basis Quote:
ID is looking for godlike activity... not observable Quote:
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09-07-2005, 01:43 PM | #1128 | |
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IOW, I take issue with your definition of "facts".
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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09-07-2005, 01:49 PM | #1129 | |||
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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09-07-2005, 01:56 PM | #1130 | |
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i think that is where they differ
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09-07-2005, 02:24 PM | #1131 | ||
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SETI an ID are similar because they are scientific groups looking for evidence and presenting facts to the public. They differ in both their theorys and what they are searching for, SETI is searching for aliens ( and not illegal immigrants either ) DI is searching for the truth about origins and intelligent design. they are different groups with different motivations therefore it is like comparing apples to oranges.
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09-07-2005, 02:41 PM | #1132 |
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Rian - I think brownjenkins is right to use the word "godlike" - because it is like what people conceive of as god to be able to design life. It is not human activity, because humans can't do that, and what is above human activity is "godlike." It isn't necessarily "god" in the religious sense, but it is "godlike activity" in the meaning of "something god could do and people can't." And that seems to be how brownjenkins is using it.
On another note, it really would be nice to be able to find the actual "testable theories" being brought up, instead of just hearing "oh, there are testable theories." And also, if testable, why not test them? Discovery Institute is pretty rich, so they could potentially do it themselves, and not have to undergo persecution from a college faculty.
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09-07-2005, 02:42 PM | #1133 | |
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09-07-2005, 02:44 PM | #1134 | |
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When you say "SETI is looking for intelligent beings (physical, observable things)", how else could they look for them besides analyzing things that they might have made? I mean, it would be nice if one popped by and we could say, "yes, here is an alien intelligent being" but in the meantime, we'll have to settle for analyzing possible artifacts of their design. How else do you think SETI scientists could look for intelligence? How else could Mars rover scientists look for intelligence?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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09-07-2005, 02:48 PM | #1135 | |||
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I said: “Facts would be nice actually. Why dont we ever hear any...” in regards to INTELLIGENT DESIGN. Not to who said he said she said on the campus of Iowa State… Youd think this wouldn’t be so hard for you to understand since Ive only been asking for legitimate facts and evidence for a good two years now. To which you replied: “What, exactly, wasn't a "fact"? And how do they have a massive vested interest? They think ID is a valid concept, and they're tired of being squashed, and are trying to put FACTS out there so people can know them and draw their own conclusions.” Now… unless Im not familiar with the English language, you were talking about intelligent design being a “valid concept” and that they put out FACTS to this effect. THIS is what I was addressing Rian. And im having a hard time seeing from that quote how you were just talking about “facts” regarding a specific academic case in Iowa and not intelligent design at all. That’s completely irrelevant to the two simple sentences I said originally about wanting facts on intelligent design. If you didn’t want to get into the discussion of FACTS (or evidence) for intelligent design and would rather take over and devote this thread simply to your spin on academic controversies surrounding creationism and intelligent design then tell me to shut up that’s not what I want to talk about but don’t give me this defensive crap when you are the one being misleading and going back and forth on what it is you are talking about. Quote:
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09-07-2005, 02:50 PM | #1136 | |||
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but seriously science effects philosophy and vice versa, that makes it more complicated to define a philosophical view from a scientific view
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09-07-2005, 02:52 PM | #1137 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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09-07-2005, 02:53 PM | #1138 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Seriously, you can use "godlike" if you want to, but that's not what IDers are looking for. They are looking for hallmarks of intelligent design, exactly like archaeologists and anthropologists do, and SETI and Mars scientists do, based upon our own observations of what an intelligently-designed product looks like. Quote:
As far as the testable theories for ID, I've mentioned concepts like specified complexity and irreducible complexity. You'll have to do a search yourself at this point; there's statistical models and things like that for specified complexity. (I think that's the term; I'm kinda tired now and I may not have the exact term right). And as far as creationism, there's specific scientific tests for predicted ages, and then there's fossil analysis in the same way that evolutionists do it, and there's genetics analysis in the same way evolutionists do it, and things like that. (and please get your tail over to the Hobbit Wheel thread! )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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09-07-2005, 03:03 PM | #1139 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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It looks like it was an innocent misunderstanding again; unfortunately, that seems to happen a lot with us. Nowhere in my post did I say that the facts were facts specifically about the evidence - I guess you just misunderstood me. As you quoted, here's what I said: Quote:
I don't think the rest is worth discussing. Again, apparently you misunderstood me. I'm sorry we seem to do that a lot. I really try very hard to write things clearly. And I think it's pretty unfair to declare that you were being "perfectly clear" - apparently you weren't, because I misunderstood you. And you misunderstood me. That's life, unfortunately. Let's both try to be more clear, and to be more patient.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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09-07-2005, 03:03 PM | #1140 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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SETI does define who these beings are... lifeforms like us, more or less it is conceivable that a highly advanced alien race would have the ability to do something like cause a star to form... but any scientist today who saw a start forming and claimed that "aliens were behind it" and it was proof of their existance would be told that it was not a very scientific theory ID defines "beings" that are so far beyond human ability (not just a little or even a lot) as to render the theory almost completely baseless "the difference" is plausibility
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