09-29-2005, 03:47 PM | #421 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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09-29-2005, 03:50 PM | #422 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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09-29-2005, 06:01 PM | #423 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Where did her post go? Did an admin take it out??
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-29-2005, 06:35 PM | #424 |
Elf Lord
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Well, quite a number of responses since I could check in.
I'm not gay-bashing. However, it seems that any mention of the data about the medical realities of sexual practices which are frankly acknowledged by the various "-blade" sources, the CDC, et cetera, are BY COMMON DEFAULT CONSENSUS here regarded as gay bashing. I have never used any of the phrases which IR in his infinite mind-link KNOWS that I am thinking. I will not surrender to allegations of what I have not done. Nor will I stop referring to the data. It is not merely prophets who are without honor for speaking the truth it would seem, but any who would point out that specific sexual activities are the source of specific disease transmission modalities, eg doctors, sexual health educators, nurses, etc. One must paint with a very wide brush to get all such to be "gay-bashers". And, on that ground, I should be equally characterized as "heterosexual basher". I repeat for the umpteenth time that there is NO EVIDENCE of a gay gene as an explanation of origins of alleged homosexual orientation, in fact, quite the contrary: "...Bailey’s most recent identical twin study, one that made use of the Australian Twin Register (p. 404; Bailey et al., “Genetic and environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an Australian twin sample,” Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 78 [2000]: 524-36)... found that nearly nine out of ten times when an identical twin self-identified as non-heterosexual the co-twin self-identified as heterosexual. Bailey notes that this study “did not provide statistically significant support for the importance of genetic factors for that trait” and that “concordances from prior studies were inflated due to concordance dependent ascertainment bias.” ... (And) the twin study by P. A. Bearman of Columbia University and H. Brückner of Yale University (“Opposite-Sex Twins and Adolescent Same-Sex Attraction,” American Journal of Sociology 107 [2002]: 1179-1205). The study found no significant difference in concordance rates for non-heterosexuality among identical twin pairs (6.7%) and fraternal twin pairs (7.2%), even though the latter are no more genetically ‘identical’ than non-twin siblings. Moreover, they found that opposite-sex twins were twice as likely to report same-sex attraction as same-sex twins; and that males without older brothers among opposite-sex twins were twice as likely to report same-sex attraction (18.7%) than their male counterparts with older brothers (8.8%). Bearman and Brückner concluded that “less gendered socialization in early childhood and preadolescence shapes subsequent same-sex romantic preferences." And, "Despite common assertions to the contrary, evidence for biological causation does not have clear moral, legal, or policy consequences. To assume that it does logically requires the belief that some behaviour is non-biologically caused. We believe that this assumption is irrational because the most proximal cause of behaviour is neurophysiological, and thus all behavioural differences will on some level be attributable to differences in brain structure or process. Thus, no clear conclusions about the morality of a behaviour can be made from the mere fact of biological causation, because all behaviour is biologically caused. (B. S. Mustanski and J. M. Bailey, “A therapist’s guide to the genetics of human sexual orientation,” Sexual and Relationship Therapy 18:4, 2003, p. 432) ." Thus, heterosexual and homosexual behaviours are not morally, legally, or socially judged in those spheres by mere biological "causality" at any rate, as the discussions here demonstrate. Other factors clearly are involved in those judgments calls on either side of pro-homo or pro-hetero actions and consequences. I have NOT made any assertions about any other than medical consequences to defined actions, associated risks, and the suggestion of behaviour modification in the light of the data. None of that is gay bashing, folks. Just apparently very unpopular.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
09-29-2005, 08:58 PM | #425 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'm glad to see you back, esp. in threads like this, because you do NOT put words in anyone's mouth! Quote:
Here's what I propose that homosexuals do - do what you think is right. Here's what I propose that heterosexuals do - do what you think is right. Here's what I think everyone should do - do what you think is right. Vote how you think is right, act how you think is right - but don't tell me to NOT do those things! I don't care what two (or more) consenting adults do in the privacy of their home, but when it comes OUT of the home, then I have every right to respond to it if and when it starts to affect society (which I am part of). And that's why I will continue to vote that I think marriage should be between one man and one woman, as it has been defined in this country for hundreds of years, because IMO, that is what is best for everyone. Just because it's been a certain way for hundreds of years doesn't AUTOMATICALLY make it wrong; take attitudes about murder, for example. So in general, I think people need to do what they think is right. Even if I heartily disagree with someone, still, I think when it comes down to decision time, that they should do what THEY think is right. Sounds pretty liberal to me! yet some of the "liberals" here seem to not want to tell ME that. They want to say there is no absolute truth, but somehow I'm wrong. Go figure ... I don't know whether to laugh or cry! As far as I can remember, this latest thing started when someone (don't recall who) said something like homosexuals are no different than heterosexuals, and there's no increased risk of disease in homosexuals -something along those lines. That's when inked started providing DATA, and from ALL types of sources - GLB sources included - showing that anal sex (to chose one thing) is riskier in terms of transmission of disease, and that a higher percentage of gay men engaged in anal sex than did heterosexual men. Seems extremely clear, then, that at least among gay men, there is a higher risk for homosexual behavior. No moral judgements - just simple data showing a fact. No big deal. Or at least it shouldn't be a big deal Then we got into the whole thing of "what is homosexual behavior"? and that homosexuals are just like everyone else. Personally, I agree, as I've posted before, and just recently posted again, except in the area of - guess what? - homosexuality. That's why there's a word for it! Again, shouldn't be a big deal - but it was. Homosexuals prefer homosexual sex. We're not talking rocket science here! And yet there's a huge foot-dragging thing going on over a simple term like homosexual behavior! Now I can see how this could be in reaction to people who (wrongly) think all homosexuals are the same in ALL areas. But that's not the case here, and that's why I am such a stickler about not putting words (or thoughts) in other people's mouths (or heads)!!!!!!! Quote:
I think anal sex is a bad idea, yes. But I don't think it's a bad idea because it's risky - I think it's risky because it's a bad idea. I don't think anal sex should be outlawed, if that's what you're getting at. I think people that want to do it are going to do it, and that's their business, if it stays in the bedroom. But I also think that in groups of people where this behavior happens at a high percentage (for example, gay men), that information should be made available, and maybe some might take more precautions, because a person's health affects the society they live in. Apparently many homosexuals agree with me, because in places like San Francisco (where there is a HUGE gay population), many gay bars have info posted about these risks. Yet no one calls THEM gay-bashers for putting this info in gay bars. I have NO problem with homosexuals, and I resent implications that I do I do happen to think that in one area of their lives, they are making wrong choices, but I'm sure they think that about me, too. I have no ill feeling towards gays AT ALL - they are people, just like I am. We ALL have opinions on what we think is right and wrong. Personally, I'm tired of being bashed for my opinion, especially when the people that do the bashing will say over and over on other threads that there is no absolute right or wrong, anyway!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 09-29-2005 at 09:02 PM. |
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09-29-2005, 09:13 PM | #426 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Being of African origin is not a behavior. Where are you getting that someone said gays are a burden on us? Quote:
Does everyone have the RIGHT to express themselves sexually in any way they want to? I don't think you'd agree to that. All it comes down to is that we agree about most of the ways that people express themselves sexually except this one thing. And as I've said, I don't think it should be illegal, and I think they (and everyone) should do what they think is right. But if it comes to a society vote about things like marriage, I'll get out there and vote for what I think is best for society. And if there is a gay man standing next to me, then I"ll encourage HIM to vote for what HE thinks is best for society. But would he do that for me? Would you? Who's the more liberal here, anyway? And if you define "liberal" as removing restrictions, then why stop at homosexual marriage? Why not remove ALL restrictions? The simple reason is that YOU have YOUR opinions on what you think is right, and so do I. And both of us have good hearts, and want what is best for everyone concerned. We just have different opinions on what this involves. Quote:
I feel exactly the same way about homosexuality. If some people want to express their sexuality by engaging in homosexual sex, then go for it! But if they bring it to a vote and want the definition of marriage to include homosexual marriages, then by golly I'll vote against it. I'm not "homophobic", and I don't think these people are somehow less than me; I just disagree that group marriage is good for society. And if someone says, "oh, homosexual sex is not any more risky than heterosexual sex", then I'll point them to data that proves that wrong. I'm not homophobic, but it seems like some here are dataphobic, if it doesn't support their opinion.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 09-29-2005 at 09:17 PM. |
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09-29-2005, 11:24 PM | #427 | |||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 421
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I see that you do not reply to my last post.
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I have said that what LGBT people experience is that they feel they orientation as hard-wired, as if it were genetic, like their height. That is not the same as saing that it is genetic, but people's feelings also have their importance. There is more than because the vastest majority or the totality of LGB people actually cannot change their orientation (it is still up in the air whether there is a tiny minority that can). Although I feel my orientation to be hard-wired and definitely not a choice; I don't care at all about the origin of my orientation. I DEMAND equal dignity for my orientation REGARDLESS for its origin. My orientation does not impact thrid parties and therefore belongs to the sphere in which I am ENTITLED to equal dignity. The day that you will recognize that my sexual acts and my relationships are morally equal to the heterosexual ones, then I will listen to your advice on behavior (I already listen to medical advice on behavior, I just choose as my sources ethically sound sources) |
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09-30-2005, 02:41 AM | #428 | |
the Shrike
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Nice to see you too, Sharon. *waves* Anyway, somewhat on topic... My co-worker/friend is in a committed lesbian relationship, has been now for a number of years. My other coworker has been in a committed gay relationship for 20 years. I think the odds of them getting 'nasties' is fairly low. Also, what are the thoughts on heterosexuals who practice fudge-packing? Is it also wrong for them?
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09-30-2005, 09:38 AM | #429 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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on inked's obsession with AIDs data... i never claimed homosexual males are not higher-risk when it comes to things like AIDs as an entire population... all i did was try to point out (as i always do) that it is bad to project statistics onto an entire population... being homosexual is not dangerous individually (i personally know a few lifelong, faithful homosexual couples)... certain homosexual practices are and whether or not there is a homosexual gene is irrelavent... there have always been and always will be homosexuals... and the real question is what kind of treatment by society (us) will lead to a safer environment in my opinion, villifying gays (which is what one does when all they post about is negatives, factual or not) does not lead to a safer environment, but instead alienates the very population you are trying to help and makes it even more likely that they won't pay attention to anything you say anymore, even the valid points confrontation is not a productive method of getting a point across... as your statement that you feel like you are always being "bashed" illustrates
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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09-30-2005, 01:03 PM | #430 |
Elf Lord
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I see, BJ. I don't actually have to say anything villifying gays to be ATTRIBUTED to have done so. Anything that can be regarded as villifying will be taken as such regardless of data, statistics, or reality.
So glad to hear that you at least acknowledge your understanding of ANIMAL FARM. To the point, posting data about medical risks is that. It is not villifying. It is not negative. It is data. Bet you even quote data to cigarette smokers who light up next to ya', don't ya'? Do they typically jump your case for villifying them? Or, do you feel superior since you understand the risks and don't engage in the behaviour? Do you think banning smoking is the answer to the known risks? Why shouldn't people be allowed to smoke in public places such as government buildings and restuarants? Could it be their private behaviour has public consequences you don't approve of? What's the diff? Unless you think homosexuals are NEEDING to be SPECIALLY PROTECTED from reality? Why? I plan to continue treating them as adults. How they feel about the data is their problem. What they do with it is their problem. In actuality, it is the same way I treat heterosexuals. Why should I specially privilege 1%-3% of the population?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 09-30-2005 at 01:04 PM. |
09-30-2005, 01:21 PM | #431 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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it's much like the difference between CNN and FOX news... both present factual news stories, but what they choose to present a majority of the time, or what context they decide to present a certain piece of data in, is what makes people rightly define one as "conservative" and the other as "liberal" on the rest, you can say whatever you like... the more differing opinions on such a controversial subject the better... i do not hold it against you, i just try to offer different ways to look at the data you present either way, it's all good... each and every reader here will make their own decisions based on what they agree with
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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09-30-2005, 02:06 PM | #432 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-30-2005, 02:59 PM | #433 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-30-2005, 03:02 PM | #434 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-30-2005, 03:05 PM | #435 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And if people hadn't objected to the first bunch of data he presented, then he wouldn't have had to present more.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-30-2005, 03:15 PM | #436 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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and what questions were those? i refer you to inked's post which bumped this thread after three months of nothing (and before that the discussion was about gay marriage, not the health angle) #307 but i'm sure he was just answering some question from last february
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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09-30-2005, 04:00 PM | #437 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-30-2005, 04:06 PM | #438 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I don't think he thinks those things, and I've read the same posts that you have. Since you think he thinks a certain way, and I think he thinks a certain way, and what you think he thinks doesn't match what I think he thinks, then one of us (or both of us) is/are wrong, so I think we should let inked say what he thinks he thinks, don't you think so?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-30-2005, 04:07 PM | #439 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-30-2005, 04:19 PM | #440 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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