08-15-2005, 06:40 PM | #41 | |||||||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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A very interesting post, Alcuin. I am so glad you are at this forum now.
Well, it seems neither Olmer, nor Gordis are here...I shall try to reply, as I loved Olmer's theory and I have recently read Unfinished Tales. Moreover, I am the Witch-King fan, and I will defend him to my last breath. Quote:
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The son of Tar-Ciryatan? Tar-Atanamir was born in 1800. His younger brother would be at least 10 years younger. (10 years is a minimal difference between siblings in the Line of Elros). By 2251, when the nazgul first appeared, he would have been no more than 440. With the life expectancy of 400-410 years one can hardly say that "his life seemed endless". With that compare Gollum who has lived for 550 years, while normally he had to live to 100 only.. No, Ciry's son won't do, it must have been someone from the previous generation. Quote:
This is, I believe, the biggest problem of Alcuin's theory. Another problem of Alcuin's theory is WHY Sauron HAS NOT given a ring to Ciryatan. He was in ME a lot, therefore easily accessible. He was the rightful heir, and soon-to-be King. So, WHY NOT?. [Quote=Alcuin]In the end, he probably helped corrupt Númenor, or at least Tar-Atanamir, setting Númenor on the road to ruin[ /Quote] And that is ALL he was able to do? Isn't it more parsimonious to think that it was Tar-Atanamir himself who was being corrupted directly by his ring? Quote:
Perhaps the Witch-King would have been a better king for Arnor than all these descendents of "a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity." that could not keep their kingdom whole and who ruined it in perpetual squabbles between themselves. Quote:
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What say you to that, Alcuin? And a side note, I have posted a big reply to you in "Boromir I the wraith" thread, I would be happy to know your opinion Regards, CS Last edited by CrazySquirrel : 08-15-2005 at 06:44 PM. |
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08-15-2005, 07:59 PM | #42 |
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may I, if for a brief instant, interrupt, what exactly does, ah, megalomaniacalwhatsitwhoahehewot mean?
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08-15-2005, 08:03 PM | #43 |
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http://www.onelook.com/
This is a great online dictionary source, it will have almost any word you can think of that might need defining.
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08-15-2005, 11:03 PM | #44 | |||||
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In four parts. Gee, CS, you nearly killed me on this one. Bite-sized, next time, please!
Part 1 of 4: CS, let’s make a deal: let Olmer and Gordis throw their own brickbat at me. Now, let us see I can satisfy your objections in a reasonable fashion. Remember, we’re speculating on what has been written. I rather like using the material from Unfinished Tales in this endeavor: there is a considerable amount of material there, especially on the various kings of Númenor. There is also a vast amount of material on the Downfall of Númenor in Sauron Defeated, the final version of which was printed in The Silmarillion as Akallabêth. I’m going to use some of that material to make my positions. Point 1: Quote:
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Let’s assume for a moment that old Witch King does not know that Gandalf is a Maia. Now, how stupid can Sauron be? Sauron has been talking to Saruman for quite some time (via palantir). He knows what Saruman is, and he might even know who Saruman is – fundamentally know who he is, from the Ainulindalë before the existence of Arda. Both of these creatures were Maiar of Aulë. It doesn’t take a genius to decide that the rest of the Istari are also Maiar, even if that determination were not made long before. So Sauron doesn’t tell his chief servant? I think we can discard this notion: the Witch King knows what kind of creature Gandalf is. Now, you might argue that the Witch King is confident that he can take on Gandalf because Fingolfin took on Morgoth. (It ended badly for him, but hey! he got in some good licks, right?) He isn’t Fingolfin. In fact, he’s no match for Glorfindel: he ran away from Glorfindel at the battle near Fornost over a millennium earlier. Who knows how strong this Elda or that is? But let’s just suppose Glorfindel is about as strong as Fingolfin was in that battle with Morgoth. Glorfindel says he (and some others in Rivendell) can ride openly against the Nine. It’s just my opinion, but the idea that the Witch-King is going to take on Gandalf and absolutely win is a stretch. Maybe he is every bit a powerful as a Maia – an Istar, a balrog, Eönwë the Herald – he knows more about his capabilities than I do. It just strikes me as hubris in the classic sense of Greek drama. But you have to come to your own conclusions about that one. Response B: Quote:
Well, I guess that makes him pretty much untouchable, something I’m not in my wife’s minivan in cramped, megalomaniacal East Coast traffic. I think these two quotes – straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak (and he doesn’t say much more in the books) – show a guy with a real sense of self-importance. Grant me, if you will, that he has a very high opinion of himself; oh, and he seems to have a correspondingly low opinion of everyone else. Feel free to disagree: I know real people like that, and you probably do, too. It’s the crown, though: “he had a kingly crown; and yet on no head visible was it set.” What’s he king of? Angmar? Eärnur, C*rdan, Glorfindel, and the survivors of Arnor ended that. Minas Morgul? Maybe. Minas Tirith? Now, that’s an idea! He’s a conquering king! Who knows what he was able to extract from Eärnur after months or years of torment in Minas Morgul! I’m not going to grant you that he’s a former King of Númenor. That’s what this reply is all about. I think he wants to the King of the Númenóreans, and I rather suspect that desire this was part of his downfall. I can’t prove it, but to me, it fits the puzzle. I still say he’s megalomaniacal. But I bought my doctorate in psychiatry at the local Wal-Mart, and I admit I could be mistaken. Quote:
We’re rarely privy to the inner workings of Sauron’s designs, or his interactions with the Nazgûl. The one clear exception here is in “The Hunt for the Ring” in Unfinished Tales: it’s worth a trip to the library if you really like reading about the Witch-King. The tale takes up as the Nazgûl wander about the Vales of Anduin looking for “Shire”: Quote:
The point is this: if Sauron said, “Don’t attack over Anduin yet,” I’ll bet the Witch-King and his eight companions would do exactly as told. Last edited by Alcuin : 08-16-2005 at 12:29 AM. |
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08-15-2005, 11:05 PM | #45 | ||||
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Part 2 of 4:
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The straightforward reading of the text, though, says it all: Tar-Ciryatan is dead. Not undead, just dead, entombed, and his tomb was lost in the ruin of Númenor. I’ll bet that the Númenóreans would have noticed if he had come to some other end. He ain’t ’round no more, that’s what I believe. I trust you’ll tell me if you disagree. By the way, nobody missed the death of Tar-Atanamir. He did something new for a Númenórean: he hung onto life “until death took him perforce in dotage.” (Unfinished Tales, The Line of Elros) He was senile. He died when he could hold onto life no longer. That little item might have made the evening news, but I’ll bet the rumor of it made the cocktail rounds. Do you think they could have hidden that fact from the royal court or the Council of the Sceptre? Quote:
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Last edited by Alcuin : 08-16-2005 at 12:34 AM. |
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08-15-2005, 11:07 PM | #46 | ||
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Part 3 of 4:
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I don’t think the guy was necessarily in the expeditionary force. I mean, what happened here? Sauron got his butt kicked and barely made it back to Barad-dûr with what remained of his personal guard. Do you really think he walked out under the bright sun (or dark of night) the very next day (or night) and said, “I’ll get that General So-and-So from the royal house! I’ll get one of these-here Nine rings, and I’ll wraith-ify him!” I’ll bet that isn’t how it went down. When Tar-Ciryatan ascended the throne – whether early, on time, because he outmaneuvered his trusting father politically – the war had been over almost 170 years. That’s long enough for the original military commanders to go home, and another generation of military leaders to go to Middle-earth and take over the forts. Sauron has to concoct a plan. That takes time. He has to test it before he acts on his newly sworn enemies, the Númenóreans. (“I wonder what one of Celebrimbor’s Great Rings will do to a mortal. Hey, Khamûl ol’ buddy! C’mere! Khamûl, we’ve been friends a long time. Take this ring as a token of my esteem. By the way, you might be interested to know that this will make you an undefeatable commander and irresistible to the ladies. Oh, and I think it gives you unending life. (Better not tell him about the awful halitosis until the spell sets in.)”) That takes more time. The good Alvin Eriol of another of my favorite boards suggested that the Lord of the Nazgûl was the commander and governor of Umbar, and that he was probably trapped several decades after the end of the war. That sounds imminently sensible to me; I wouldn’t care to venture a guess on which of the settlements he led, but Umbar sounds fair enough. It could be any of them. He could have been visiting for studies, involved in something else entirely, on a picnic in Ithilien – we don’t know, and we’re not told. But commander and governor of a garrison sounds right to me, because that means he gets to meet and entertain the visitors. And an important, wealthy, seemingly wise and erudite visitor with a magic dingus is just the kind of intriguing fellow to tickle the fancy of a bored viceroy in a newly-constructed fortress far from home and the familiar comforts of Númenor. “A magic ring, you say? Me, King? Nah, (insert your own here: “my brother”, “my cousin”, “my nephew”, “my uncle”, “that greedy dog who gets all the lucky breaks instead of me”) is gonna be King. Whadda ya mean it makes you invisible? Everlasting life? Oh, that’s a hoot! Really … ?” Quote:
Last edited by Alcuin : 08-16-2005 at 12:40 AM. |
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08-15-2005, 11:10 PM | #47 | |||||||||||||
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Part 4 of 4 (Hurray! I counted right!):
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CS, I’m not poking fun at you, so please don’t take offense. I was having fun, but not at your expense, because you make a legitimate point: why didn’t the guy just kill the people between him and the royal scepter? I think Gandalf answers that question: Quote:
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Last edited by Valandil : 08-17-2005 at 07:44 AM. |
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08-17-2005, 07:01 AM | #48 | ||||||||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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In Defence of the Witch-King I
Oh, Alcuin, you almost knocked me down. And you were the one to ask for a bite-sized pieces!
How can a reply to THAT be bite-sized? Please, before you start to read, consider that it took a lot of time as it is, so I didn't type the obvious quotes from LOTR and so on. Sometimes I quoted from memory. If you are uncertain what I meant, let me know, I shall provide the whole quote. Part I I have no doubt that the Witch-King knew that Gandalf was a maia. The WK lived almost entirely in the spirit world, and I believe in that world it is pretty easy to recognise Maiar, Calaquendi elves, nazgul and mortal ringbeareas. The istari were "clad" in men bodies, but that was only in "the world of light". In the other world their true form must have been apparent. Quote:
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When Denethor asked Gandalf "or you withdrew because you were overmatched?" Gandalf replied, "It may be so..." Quote:
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By the way, I think Witchy was rather nice and considerate to warn the soldier, instead of beating his head in with the mace right away. Quote:
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Megalomaniac? According to Cambridge International Dictionary of English, "megalomania means an unnaturally great desire for power and control, or the belief that you are very much more important and powerful than you really are". Was his desire for power and control "unnatural"? No, it would have been unnatural for you or me, but for him it was NATURAL. Did he think himself more powerful than he really was? No. He avoided Glorfindel, he would have avoided Gandalf, if he had a choice in the matter. He let Gandalf slip from the trap at Weathertop. Nobody was killed or injured in that battle. Unlike in the movie, he didn't seek Gandalf out in Minas Tirith. Gandalf chose to confront him, not the other way round. Last edited by CrazySquirrel : 08-17-2005 at 07:04 AM. |
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08-17-2005, 07:05 AM | #49 | ||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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In Defence of the Witch-King Part II
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Why nothing is said of the ring in the Silm or in the UT? If we discuss a fictional book, the reply is: because Tolkien has not written the Witch-King's history. If we discuss the history of ME as a "real history" I would repeat after Olmer: because the chronicles of Numenor and Gondor were swept clean of all the references to the Witch-King, (the same way as the story of Beruthiel had been obliterated). If one asks YOU, why is there no mention of a Prince -nazgul, you will have to give the same answer. Quote:
Ciryatan-Cyriatur. I agree these are different people. But where is it said that this admiral Ciryatur was the Head of the Army? He commanded the fleet, put ashore forces etc. But who won the battles? The name is missing. Just "Numenoreans". The Royal line must have been quite strong at this time, counting at least several princes eligible to lead the army. Could a simple admiral be in charge? Hardly. It was a major war after all, the first war in Numenor history. There had to be a prince at least, more likely one from the main line, at the head. Why nothing is said about him? Because he became the Witch-King. |
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08-17-2005, 07:07 AM | #50 | |||||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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In Defence of the Witch-King, Part III
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But not the Witch-King! Let us look at the nazgul. "The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others " (Letter # 210, Tolkien Letters, p.272). He is the tallest of the Nine (and funny as it seems, it is a sure indication of a higher bloodline in Tolkien's world). He is the only one who wears a crown. And he is the Captain. Now the Nine were "Kings, sorcerers and warriors of old"(Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age). We know that out of the Nine, three were Numenoreans. So what is required of the one that is their uncontested leader? I should say he was a King and a Numenorean. The other two might be governors of numenorean provinces, like Umbar. But he was a King of Numenor. All the others were his subjects. |
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08-17-2005, 07:11 AM | #51 | |||||||||
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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In Defence of the Witch-King, Part IV
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You know, Alcuin, we agree on lots of points. The major difference is that I like the Witchy, while you obviously dislike him. Elvish propaganda has got you. Last edited by CrazySquirrel : 08-17-2005 at 07:17 AM. |
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08-17-2005, 07:46 AM | #52 |
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I agree with Crazy Squirrel that the last prince of Cardolan who fell in 1409 was not descended in direct line from Isildur, because we're told that just a few years before the line of Isildur had died out in both Rhudaur and Cardolan - though I'm a bit overwhelmed by the sheer volume of postage to determine what bearing that has on the W-K's origins.
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08-19-2005, 11:32 AM | #53 | |
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Otherwise there pretty good theories |
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08-19-2005, 11:40 AM | #54 | |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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But the first time Tolkien has invented the Witch King's character, he described him as "a renegade wizard from Numenor".That was before Tolkien developed the concept of Wizards being all maiar. It is in the "Return of the Shadow" HOME, I think. And then of course, he is the tallest of the Nine, and the Captain of the Nine. And we know that 3 of the 9 were from Numenor. So most probably Witchy is a numenorean. The Second to the Chief, Khamul, was an Easterling. |
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08-19-2005, 12:18 PM | #55 |
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Three of the Nazgûl were Númenóreans; although which three of the nine is never stated. CrazySquirrel is correct: we generally assume that the Witch-King was one of these three, and I further assumed that one of them was a member of the House of Elros.
Gordis makes good points in the quote provided by The Witch-King of Angmar. If I touch upon them, 1. Berúthiel was removed from the lists apparently because she fell into (or continued) some practice of darkness after she married Tarannon Falastur. I suppose her exile was the Gondorian equivalent of a royal divorce, and I note that a multi-generational series of wars with the old Black Númenórean kingdoms to the South followed this marital rupture. For the Númenóreans to remove the name of the Witch-King from their records in a similar manner would probably require that they knew his fate and disapproved of it. 2. The Witch-King might have been the military commander sent to Gil-galad’s succor, but it is more likely that he was a follow-on commander at one of the garrisons left behind. It’s easier for Sauron to plan his revenge and trap him that way. 3. Tolkien intimates that the Eldar kept the information about the Rings closely held. It may be that even Tar-Minastir failed to understand completely what the fighting was about. The Númenóreans were assisting the Eldar of Middle-earth as a matter of principle and in respect of their ancient alliance during the First Age. And yes, I agree that this “failure to communicate” probably made entrapping the three Númenóreans a lot easier. 4. Sauron swore no allegiance to Númenor until he humbled himself before Ar-Pharazôn at the end of the Second Age. He swore vengeance against them instead, and retreated from the coasts where the Númenóreans were strongest militarily. Had he sworn allegiance to Númenor and sent them rich gifts, the chroniclers would have noted it, and Gil-galad would have warned them against accepting either. Again, the Númenóreans knew who Sauron was in the First Age: the enemy of their ancestors, and the Maia who tried to kill Beren and who brought about the destruction of Dorthonion. Gil-galad knew who he was in the Second Age, and so did his Númenórean allies: that’s one of the main reasons the old alliance was rekindled: they faced a common, very dangerous enemy together. |
08-24-2005, 08:11 AM | #56 |
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Regarding WK challenging Gandalf, he didn't really have that much to lose. He couldn't be destroyed unless his Ring was. If Gandalf did deliver what would be a killer blow, he would return to Mordor, his spirit withered. There Sauron would 'rechrge' it with the Ring and he could return again a few weeks later.
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04-30-2008, 02:56 PM | #57 |
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Love this old thread.
I have found some new facts important for Olmer's theory - one more proof for it, in fact. We have now Hammond and Scull's very detailed chronology of all Tolkien writings. According to H&S (Companion and Chronology) "The Line of Elros" in UT is dated 'probably 1960' according to the former, and in Chronology under the entry for March 1960: '-- Other works are probably contemporary with Aldarion and Erendis (...) *The Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor... So, you see, "the Line of Elros" is likely written before Tolkien started to revise the “Tale of Years” for the Second edition of LOTR published in 1966. The Second edition still contained the entry "2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear." And the "Line of Elros" gave 2251 (corrected at an unknown time to 2221) as the time of Atanamir's death. How could Tolkien miss this "mistake" (as Christopher calls it) in the Second Edition while he already had the "Line of Elros" written? Seems Tolkien has indeed extended the time of Tar Ciryatan's rule in the Tale of Years quite deliberately! |
04-30-2008, 09:40 PM | #58 | |
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Well, my guess is he was my Secret Santa a few years back. I could be mistaken of course.
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05-01-2008, 12:16 AM | #59 |
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Tom Bombadil. Thread closed.
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05-01-2008, 01:31 AM | #60 |
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