02-18-2005, 01:05 PM | #1 |
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The Shibboleth of Fëanor
I did a search and didn't see a thread on this.
I absolutely ADORED this work! It's in HoME 12, The Peoples of Middle Earth (POME). It's filled with all the stuff I like - linguistic history, looks into the lives of first-age elves, history and derivation of names, complete with translation styles into other languages, and a fascinating account of a mysterious little incident with Fëanor's youngest son. And a hilarious comment about someone's hair! I really disliked Fëanor - I was angry with what I thought were foolish and selfish decisions - but this work gave me a huge amount of understanding and insight and compassion for him - and then turns around and drops that little Umbarto gem on us! Who else likes this work? I was thinking about it again recently because El just ordered POME and a bunch of pages were missing - right in the Shibboleth!!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-18-2005, 05:49 PM | #2 |
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Hair
I really like it! For all your reasons and more...
One thing is that hidden link between LotR and the old mythology. Fëanor begged thrice for a tress of Galadriel´s hair but was rejected. Gimli asked once for one hair - and was given three. Sort of wraps up things nicely...
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02-18-2005, 05:59 PM | #3 | |
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This is the very first Shibboleth thread...?
Quote:
I loved what I did read of it. I'll certainly keep up with the thread, RÃ*an, but I don't have access to the story at the moment... You're going to have to brief me on what your discussing!
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02-18-2005, 06:59 PM | #4 | ||
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Quote:
For me, it created such a poignant picture of Fëanor's heartbreak over his mother, and how miscommunications piled up to the exploding point (for example, thinking Indis was dropping the Þ sound to insult his mother, when she was only doing it to show honor to her new husband). Quote:
El - maybe I had my search parameters to only this year ... but I don't think there was a recent thread on the Shibboleth anyway.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-18-2005, 10:36 PM | #5 |
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The Shibboleth definitely cements my impression of Fëanor:
arrogant, selfish idiot. I love all the names that show up...I've got quite a taste for Quenya. It's somewhat neat how Nerdanel finally gave the name "Umbarto" for one of the twins... Goes with the whole idea of predestination, methinks. She seems to have been quite the prophetess.
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
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02-19-2005, 09:29 AM | #6 | ||
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I love the Shibboleth, used to have quotes from it in my sig..."Fell and fey you have become"...
Quote:
Quote:
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02-23-2005, 03:33 PM | #7 |
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It is just SO Professor Tolkien to "hunt down" the backstory behind a linguistic change and dig up the "true" reasons behind it - really fun!
I love how the first three paragraphs are the "detective work" behind the change from s to Þ - things like noting the Ñoldor lived between the Vanyar and the Teleri in Valinor, and thus could not be unfamiliar with the sound. Then he says, "The change Þ to s must therefore have been a conscious and deliberate change agreed to and accepted by a majority of the Ñoldor, however initiated, after the separation of their dwellings from the Vanyar." I love how he himself is immersed into his secondary reality world! I also love how he describes how the change started, but was "attacked by the loremasters, who pointed out that the damage this merging would do in confusing stems and their derivatives that had been distinct in sound and sense had not yet been sufficiently considered." I just picture these Elvish loremasters having a violent committee meeting about this and it makes me smile It's also interesting that the chief linguistic loremaster was - guess who - Fëanor! Which starts to hint at the reason why the change was made ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-24-2005, 04:28 PM | #8 |
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(SGH, your Shibboleth is caaaaallllllling you.....)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-25-2005, 07:55 PM | #9 | |||
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And more ...
so after the description of the loremasters' discussion, it says this : Quote:
And Fëanor's objections are so typical of him - "you don't care for our language, and/or don't even understand it, if you don't like the Þ!" Then the essay gets into the story of Finwë, MÃ*riel and Indis ... Interesting description of Fëanor's actions after MÃ*riel's death : Quote:
Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-25-2005, 08:35 PM | #10 | |
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Quote:
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
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02-25-2005, 11:33 PM | #11 | ||
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[snooty Fëanor voice]Well, it's obvious that if you TRULY cared about and understood the language, you would KNOW! [/snooty Fëanor voice]
It doesn't say - it just says, Quote:
I also like this little note on Finarfin - Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-25-2005 at 11:35 PM. |
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02-25-2005, 11:48 PM | #12 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
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02-26-2005, 02:57 AM | #13 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
Anyone heard any Castillains (from Spain) speak? They use the þ. I assume Fat Middle has heard them. My sister-in-law from Spain imitates them sometimes.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-26-2005, 07:04 AM | #14 |
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You don't know how much it means to me to hear you say that.
I'm taking spanish-classes (not heard many natives yet though), it's my impression that the þ is becoming less used in Spain (though still strong many other spanish-speaking countries)
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02-28-2005, 02:11 AM | #15 |
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Gee, I was hoping more people liked the Shibboleth ...
this thread isn't exactly taking off!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-28-2005, 02:31 AM | #16 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
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02-28-2005, 04:57 AM | #17 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
I'd like to ask a question to everyone. Do you think the Valar did right when they let Finwë marry Indis?
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02-28-2005, 12:51 PM | #18 |
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Wow, that's a tough question ... Tolkien, thru many of his characters, put forth opinions supporting both sides!
I'll have to think a bit more, but I think I might remain undecided! What do you think, Arty?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-04-2005, 10:28 PM | #19 | |
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Quote:
In this case, IMO, allowing Finwë to remarry was the less "wrong" choice. It is hard to say what would have happened had the descendants of Indis never lived; perhaps Fëanor would not have been as susceptible to the jealousy and rage that later conquered him completely. Still, it depends on what you consider good. I don't think it can be considered completely bad that the children and grandchildren of Indis existed. It's one of those decisions that has both good and bad consequences, that's as far as I can take it. I have a question now: Fëanor considered the old "þ" to be more correct than the "s". Technically speaking, yes, the "þ" was the more accurate way of speaking. However, in reality is it actually more correct? Is something right because it has history, or because it is presently in use? Should everyone who speaks English switch back to "thou" and "thee" because it's the more accurate way of using the singular form? (I'm sure Chrys wouldn't mind. )
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03-06-2005, 12:02 AM | #20 |
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I got the feeling that it was more of an artistic judgement that the þ was correct for the language. Further on in the Shibboleth, it states something like the Noldor wouldn't use their Quenya names in Sindarin country because it was artistically jarring, in a sense, so they converted their names.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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