11-22-2004, 04:12 PM | #581 | |
avocatus diaboli
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While I personally don't equate religion with logic, I agree that Christianity, at least the way you perceive it, Rian, seems very logical.
Er... you have a lot to answer right now from various people, and much of what I'd ask was in their posts as well, so I'll only ask one more question right now... Quote:
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11-22-2004, 04:17 PM | #582 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I've heard some people object that it's rather mean of God to only bless us if we come to Him. Well, let's think about this, again in terms of reality. IF God is as described in the Bible (the absolute source of all goodness and love), and He has MADE us for the joy of being in relationship with Him, THEN the only way we CAN be blessed is to be with Him! If a loving father longs to embrace his child and give him gifts and talk with him and love him, and the child runs into a corner, screws his eyes closed, clenches his fists and says "I want to be blessed, but I want it on MY terms!", then it is NOT saying anything against the loving father that the child hasn't received the blessings. Again, if the reality is that the universe is a certain way, as the Bible claims, then there is ALSO a reality that God designed us a certain way, with the intent of giving us INCREDIBLE joy - and any way APART from God CANNOT give joy. As C.S. Lewis says, "If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows - the only food that any possible universe can ever grow - then we must starve eternally."
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-22-2004, 04:26 PM | #583 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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About logic - there's this odd idea floating around that "faith" is some sort of brainless thing. Now that may be true of some people (including atheists!), but I don't think it reflects well on them. I like how R.C. Sproul puts it - Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-22-2004, 04:31 PM | #584 |
avocatus diaboli
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Sorry, Rian. I didn't mean I don't see religion as something apart from logic innately, I meant that concerning my own personal quasi-religious beliefs, I don't always see the importance of logic.
BTW, nice quote.
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11-22-2004, 04:36 PM | #585 | |
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Sorry, I think it's very illogical to assume that, but I think you're just teasing me. If not, please give me your reasons! (besides a lack of photos). BTW, on this question, I think you're starting in the middle. IMO, the first question to be considered is this : "Is it likely, given what I see around me and what I feel inside me, that some type of greater being exists; yes or no?" Personally, I think a logical answer is "yes". Then if one answers that question with a "yes", I think the next question would be : "If this greater being exists and doesn't want to be known, then it is logical to assume that we couldn't see evidence of him/her/it, so I won't bother with thinking about that option. I will continue by assuming that this being wants to be known in some way. Now given this assumption, which worldview that assumes that a higher being exists do I think is most likely to be right, based on internal consistency, documentary evidence, evidence of the world around me, etc.?" Personally, I think Christianity fits the evidence best (both external and internal) and is most logically consistent. So then, based upon that, I believe that it is very likely indeed that heaven exists. Now do you want to tell me why you think it doesn't exist? Or you might want to wait for your turn, which I"m hoping you'll take!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-22-2004, 04:43 PM | #586 | |
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Yes, it's a good quote, isn't it? See, again, it's about reality/truth - if Christianity's truth claims are real, then IT WILL be ENTIRELY consistent with logic, because logic reflects reality (altho there is also MORE than logic involved). Now logic is not at ALL the heart of what Christianity's about - I think love is the heart - but it is a side-effect, if you will, that Christianity is entirely logically cohesive. I hope you'll take a turn in the hot seat, too! We're all nice people here, as you can see
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-22-2004, 04:47 PM | #587 |
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this is maybe the most intelectual post I've ever read! and I have'nt read all of it
while I am not Christian my self, I enjoy your posts abput it, Rian. they helps me see things in it which I never even had thought of by myself. keep posting, its realy enlightening
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11-22-2004, 05:00 PM | #588 | |||
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the existance of heaven is "fantastical", thus it is you who have to prove a positive... there are many other religions out there, and i'm sure each particular flavor could argue their case as well as you do... i've seen some of it here... which just points to the lack of hard evidence even if i bought your statement: Quote:
and if i look at your other statement... which could just as easily have come out of the mouth of a muslim, jew, etc.: Quote:
and in truth, the reality might even be something which no living being has even made the proper guess at yet without physical evidence anything is possible... many perfectly "logical" conclusions have been made in the past given knowledge at the time, only to be proven completely wrong when new evidence came along (ptolemy is a good example)
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11-22-2004, 05:03 PM | #589 | |
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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11-22-2004, 05:11 PM | #590 | ||
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Look at what the Bible says, and look at the actions of Jesus: What the Bible says (I'm adding bolding) - from John 3:16 : "God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in Him would not perish, but have eternal life." from Romans 5:8 : "But God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." The actions of Jesus - who did he hang out with? The outcasts of the time - the poor, the sick, the hated tax-collectors (they took MORE than what they were supposed to and were really hated), the prostitutes, the women ... it was the cold, self-righteous Pharisees that Jesus had terribly harsh words for. Look at Jesus talking with the woman at the well - she came during the hot hours of noon so she could avoid other people - a woman, and an immoral one at that - even the disciples wondered that Jesus was talking to her! Yet Jesus offered her eternal life ... He died for everyone because He IS love. And even on the cross, there were 2 thieves on either side of Him, reviling anbd mocking Him. Yet as time went on, and one thief saw Jesus, and thought about things, he came to believe in Jesus - and Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-23-2004 at 10:14 PM. |
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11-22-2004, 05:15 PM | #591 |
avocatus diaboli
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Sure, I'll go on the hot seat eventually... but will probably end up contradicting myself.
Simple question originating from your last post: Rian, do you believe the Bible should be followed word for word?
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Neil Gaiman Last edited by ElemmÃrë : 11-22-2004 at 05:17 PM. |
11-22-2004, 10:39 PM | #592 | ||||||||
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What I'm saying is, Heaven or Hell is a no-brainer. Everyone wants to go Heaven, and one only wants to go to Hell as a protest against the Heaven or Hell choice. So what kind of choice is it? Though, my point was not to suggest that there ought to be more choices, or anything like that. My point was that I don't see how the choice of Heaven or Hell is an indication of honor to free-will. Quote:
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Perhaps, you would say that God must honor our free-will, and let the wicked lead themselves away to damnation. But once again I must bring up the problem of love vs. damnation. If God loves even the wicked, should God not allow the wicked to undergo a healing process? To me, that's what's really important for the corrupt. The corrupt need to be healed, not punished. Quote:
I made a comment that God does not seem to love the damned. Rian responded: Quote:
So I don't think you understood me here. Quote:
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11-22-2004, 11:34 PM | #593 | ||||||
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Not that I believe in Free Will, of course . Quote:
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I think that when God condemns people to hell, he probably won't love them anymore. There will be nothing loveable about them. It says in the Book of Daniel that they will rise to "everlasting shame and contempt." My view is that they will have extinguished all goodness from themselves. How can God love something that is pure evil? That's my view. I'm curious to see how RÃ*an responds, though . Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-22-2004, 11:38 PM | #594 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-22-2004, 11:42 PM | #595 | |||
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I don't have long (studying), but I'm taking Ñólendil's side in this.
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But I see what you're saying... I think. Quote:
[edited] oh, you posted again. Considering that the Bible has been translated many times over, which parts can be taken literally?
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman Last edited by ElemmÃrë : 11-22-2004 at 11:43 PM. |
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11-23-2004, 12:12 AM | #596 | |||
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But people are put in hell because of sin. Rejection of God, Elemmire, is considered rejection of goodness, for there is no goodness that does not come from God (in the worldview of Christians). Rejection of the person Christ, if you believe you are rejecting an evil tyrant, is not the same as rejecting God truly, or all goodness. You reject the evil tyrant Christ and you're not really rejecting Christ. However, goodness did come down to Earth in human form, the form of Christ Jesus. It says in the scripture that if you have tasted the bliss of the heavenly kingdom, however, and reject Christ, then there is no turning back. This implies that if you turn away from Christ, knowing full well what he is, then you are sinning very badly. By coming to know and experience the person who is Christ, a person can be filled with goodness and come closer and closer to God. I know that I personally have changed to become a better person since coming to know Christ personally. Many people who have been involved in far, far worse things then I have have had even more dramatic of conversions, and Christ's goodness coming through them as it is now is quite a dramatic testimant to God's ability to act in the here and now. So it's not belief vs. nonbelief. It's sin vs. sinlessness. Someone who turns fully to God, giving up control of his life and surrendering it to God, will have sin bashed all the way out of his life. It'll take a while. I don't think its completion will happen in this life. But sinlessness is the goal. Quote:
The old Bible copies were widely dispersed, and there were very many of them. The number of New Testaments out there is significant because one can compare one copy to another, and see whether there actually was any noticable difference between the scripture copies in one place and the scripture copies in another. How much did the retranslations and such detract from the original meaning? The answer was: virtually not at all! The changes from one translation to another were miniscule, and not allowing for difference of belief on any major doctrine. These facts are really remarkable, Elemmire, and I'm glad you gave me the chance to describe again to someone one of the remarkable evidences supporting Christianity's witness .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-23-2004, 12:58 AM | #597 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I would totally agree that the dirty children/clean house picture is a great picture of Mormonism, and that's one of the "unfair" aspects that I'm talking about. That's also one of the reasons that I don't think it's right; it doesn't seem fair, and fairness and justice are so strong in people's hearts that I think it reflects our Maker. There's lots of other reasons, too, which I"ll get into if anyone is interested. As far as the Christian (by the classic definition) picture, it would be roughly this: God sees the children he loves playing in the mud, and (this is important) - knows that there's harmful bacteria, etc. in the mud, and that the children will be truly and fully happy in the house (and its nice backyard, which has nice clean dirt ). God comes out of the house Himself to embrace them and talk to them, and carry them into the house and wash the mud off the children, even tho He knows that by doing so, He will bear the pain and sorrow of the illness from the dirt, altho He saves the kids from it. But because He is God, He doesn't die, but comes into the house to love and play with the children and be with them forever and provide everything they need.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-23-2004, 01:01 AM | #598 | ||
avocatus diaboli
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I have to admit, this is a better analogy than the alien one. I still have several problems with it. This one is less important, and deals primarily with the analogy, I think: I would consider my mother's friends to be her peers as well. However, unless I forget all my Christian schooling, according to Christianity, God is peerless, since he created everything and no created thing can be equal to it's creator (someone said that earlier... I can't find it now). Thus, no friends to anger. Of course, and more importantly, you refer to a mother as someone known and loved. Now, if you had said "father," I could have more easily countered that statement. I don't know my father, and hardly ever have. If he had promised me a car, I would not know whether or not to believe him. I would have to assume that he loved me, but I would not know for sure... God is also someone I can not claim to have personally known, of Him I know only what I have heard from ministers or read in a Bible. I am desperately trying to argue this from a Christian instead of an atheist point of view, but I don't think it's going to work, so I'll stop here. Quote:
1) What about the Old Testament? 2) Okay, this one may be somewhat contraversial, but Bible discussion compelled me to bring it up. Christianity became the official religion in Rome because of Constantine, in about 300 AD, who, according to some historians at least, sought to use it as a religious and political uniting force for a failing Rome. From what I've heard, though so far I haven't been able to find much documentation (since the Internet is oh so reliable ) the modern Bible itself was in part compiled by Constantine, whose motives were far more secular than religious. Therefore, much of what we know from the Bible is what Constantine decided was important for his subjects to believe. Do you see the conflict here? Any insights into the more historical problems, or do I need to go back to history class ? [edited] Oh! Hi Rian! You can answer this for me.
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11-23-2004, 01:32 AM | #599 | ||||||
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But as I said, I was mainly talking about differences of opinion outside the realm of Christianity. Course, you may wonder why I would do that when speaking about God as seen as the Bible. I did so merely because of Rian's suggestion that her example of God in the Bible, is looking at it in terms of reality. There's nothing wrong with that suggestion, it's only that, for a discussion, not everyone will agree that the terms she is thinking of is reality. So I suggested "terms of the Bible" would be a better word. I don't mean to discount her beliefs, of course. Quote:
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Btw, I certainly agree that murderers and rapists can genuinely repent and go to Heaven. But I wanted to know what you or Rian believes would be involved for such a person to repent. I ask because I wonder if becoming a Christian is enough. That is, can a murderer murder people until his dying day, be a Christian, and go to Heaven? Or is a murderer not really a Christian anyway? Certainly murder is not condoned by Christianity, by when does a murderer become a good Christian? What is required of him? I should like to take this point in time, Lief, to mention that I agree with you! Yay! Your comments on the word-for-word bit, and that people aren't sent to Hell or Heaven based on belief/unbelief. Course I don't mind when we disagree, and I enjoy the discussion.
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11-23-2004, 01:40 AM | #600 | |
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But, I'm not sure I would agree with your analogy either. What's muddy, and what's not? In itself though, I really like it, and find it a great improvement over the "don't let the muddy children in" analogy.
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