10-31-2004, 04:49 AM | #341 | |||
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In response to your first question quoted here, I would like to say that a great deal of people "convert" to Atheism after Christianity. Because Atheism is not a faith, there really aren't many (I have not heard any) reports of spiritual experiences when Christianity was dropped. The idea seems almost silly.There wouldn't be, would there? Atheism is simply the denial of the existence of God. It's not a religion about faith. But those atheists who deny the existence of God can still have miraculous experiences in their lives. They may not feel it as the presence of the Spirit in themselves, but they may indeed feel it as other things. I think some people who stop believing feel great relief in themselves, and freedom, and power. I do not speak here of any of the negative senses that may come with "power". The power to change the world, for the better. For others, Atheism is utterly depressing and hopeless ... perhaps as depressing as another person may find Christianity, or Hinduism, with their perceived oppressive natures. I'm almost at a loss here to explain myself, and it's partly because, I think, that I haven't thought much about physical sensations of the Divine, and people who claim to have felt God. I think I have, as I said, felt the effects of what God has done for me, and it was an amazing experience. Really I don't have much right to speak for Atheists on the subject, or for Christians. I can only suppose, and this is what I have done. So I would say, if an Atheist becomes a Christian, and that seems right for that person, then that is perhaps the right thing for that person. And vice-versa. It's different for everybody, to me. One should believe what is comfortable for that person. I don't mean "convenient". I mean, if it fits with what you believe, if you gain something good and worthwhile from it, and it makes sense to you, become a part of it. Quote:
You didn't say any of that, but I am using these quotes (which I came up with) to make a point, which may I feel may be needed here. I am speaking of the holiness that is realized in life, at some point, when you become what the easterns call "enlightened". I am speaking of retaining only the necessary ego to interact with other beings, to help them attain what you have attained. But I am also, especially, speaking of the holiness that you become one with when the ego dies. I am speaking of a Heaven which is experienced in a lower sense while you are still interacting with this world, and then in full when you move on. I am speaking of that kind of Reality. I am not speaking of the joy you have when you accept Jesus into your heart, the joy (or happiness) you have when you decide there is no God, or when something really nice happens to you. The only word I could think of, at the time, for this Reality, that would be acceptable to Atheists, was "happiness". And that is why, technically, I equated happiness with holiness. The key in all of that, that you would probably still disagree with, is that this "happiness" that Atheists can understand, I believe can be experienced and attained by the said Atheists, without converting, or believing in God. So, I think true happiness and holiness are the same, because I am using both words to describe the Absolute. I use both words because one can be agreed upon by theists, and the other by Atheists, and I believe both can experience the Absolute.
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10-31-2004, 04:50 AM | #342 | ||||
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To make things clearer (I hope), I don't disagree with the above quote at all. But that is partly because my own definition of the meaning behind "a need for God that exists in every soul" is probably different from yours. If you had said "There is a need to believe in a higher power that exists in every soul", I would disagree. I realize now that I have a rather unconventional way of defining God as something which doesn't have to be "God". Not sure if I sound completely sane, but it all makes sense to me. As for your own experience, I cannot possibly argue against that. I don't disbelieve you, that much is certain. But I do disagree about Atheists needing to be Theists, if that is part of what you are implying. Quote:
So I think people move away from peace because suffering is not usually thought of as suffering, and seems more desirable. But what they want is joy, even if they don't know what joy is. They want the end of suffering. Quote:
So yes, we disagree on this point. I said that Joy is the beginning and end of all things. You said: Quote:
So, I was taking about that thing which I keep calling "Brahman" and "Heaven", and "nirvana" and all that.
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Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 10-31-2004 at 04:53 AM. |
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10-31-2004, 08:06 AM | #343 | ||||
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Even if you mean meaningless to the people in other religions, I don't think an act of such love and compassion could ever be rendered meaningless no matter what its significance to you is. Feel free to go into your views on souls anytime Ñólendil.
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10-31-2004, 11:29 AM | #344 |
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Let me proclaim and radiate.......I'm so happy!!
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10-31-2004, 11:51 AM | #345 | ||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-31-2004, 03:10 PM | #346 | ||||
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What you recognize as the deeper part of ourselves that seeks for God, I view as the call of God. There is a distinct difference between our views here, for I don't view God as automatically within everyone, as you do. While Christ agreed with you in scripture that he must be within people, for them to come to heaven, he also said clearly that this is not automatically the case with everyone. "In order for you to come to heaven, you must be born again." That isn't even remotely close to your statement, "In order for you to come to heaven, you have been born again." The deep instinct calling people is the call of God on our souls. Most people love the illusion too much to accept it, for to accept the eternal (or as you might say, the reality) one must give up the illusion. One cannot love both God and the illusion. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-31-2004, 03:16 PM | #347 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-31-2004 at 03:19 PM. |
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10-31-2004, 03:30 PM | #348 | ||||||||
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10-31-2004, 03:44 PM | #349 | |
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10-31-2004, 03:53 PM | #350 | ||
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To me, "spiritual" means that you aren't only focused on the physical, but you also think, meditate, absorb your surroundings, and have a comfortable view of God and humanity. I'd be surprised if anyone mentioned to me a spiritual person whose insights contained many negative or uncomfortable views. "Religious" means adhering to various doctrines, scriptures and religious beliefs. As I said to Ñólendil, religion is like a safety harness. It also is instructive. Someone can experience God outside of this, but it is easier to make goof-ups, mistakes, or to get misled. It's the same way with a field of science. You can make discoveries separate from modern scientific thought, but it's much harder to make new or correct discoveries. You may find your discoveries were disproved fifty years ago, or something. Does my selective, exclusive view seem less irritating, now? Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-31-2004 at 03:58 PM. |
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10-31-2004, 04:53 PM | #351 | ||||||||||
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to unite people with God? If no one is going to hell, why die to save people from hell? Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-31-2004, 05:48 PM | #352 | |||
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I'm just going to respond to a few of these that I feel are most important, because I think my time in the hotseat ought to be over soon.
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And Christianity doesn't have to be exclusive. I was a part of a very inclusive Church. I think you have to look at the context in which things were written. I don't take many of the stories literally, for instance. I don't usually take them metaphorically, either. I think a lot of it was sermons, stories made to illustrate a point. And I also believe the Bible was written by inspired human beings. I realize we differ a lot on these points. Quote:
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10-31-2004, 06:23 PM | #353 | |||||||
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Often spirits produce lies to keep people from truth. Those lies should be fought, as should those from whom they come. I know that if I believed something that was an outright lie, I'd be very, very grateful if someone helped me out of that difficulty. Especially if that lie was keeping me from experiencing God. Wouldn't you? By the way, I am completely willing to cease my debating, if you wish. That would give you the chance to answer more questions and tell us more things about Hinduism, rather then continue battling over specific points.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-31-2004, 09:46 PM | #354 | |||||||||||
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I won't be surprised if that doesn't quite fit favorably with you. I bet it doesn't seem right at all. Quote:
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10-31-2004, 10:59 PM | #355 | |||||||||
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Yes, Atheists believe the lie that God does not exist (I call it a lie because I believe it was introduced to society by a malevolent force, probably by name Lucifer). (Sorry Lizra !) I believe some things that are simply untrue also. All of us do. Some things are vitally important for us to believe, however, in order to survive. We must believe that the law of gravity exists, or we probably will end up dead, having fallen from a height. Some truths of the natural world we need to believe in order to survive. We don't have to understand them- we have to believe them. Jesus Christ I believe is one of those truths. If we don't believe in him, we won't inherit eternal life. Quote:
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I haven't been attempting to convert you, Ñólendil. I've been attempting to learn more about your faith, and I am very pleased by the exposure knowing you has given me. I've been trying to learn more about Hinduism, and I'm very interested in learning more about Islam also. I've been hearing a lot of negative things about it from the people I know, and I really am interested in talking with someone who actually believes in Islam. This is a head knowledge about religions and beliefs that I'm after right now. Quote:
I'm sorry if you've taken any insult in what I've said. I have certainly not intended any. I'm sorry you find certain of my beliefs also greatly repugnant, but I can't apologize for what I'm certain is true. Anyway. I do somewhat hope you'll get me in contact with the Muslim, so that I can get a better idea of what they mean, also. Meanwhile, I look forward to hearing more on your comments about Hinduism. Any more you have to offer, I'm very interested in reading. May God bless you! ~Lief
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-31-2004 at 11:10 PM. |
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11-01-2004, 01:50 AM | #356 |
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Oh, actually Ñólendil, if you send me that email address, it would be better if you sent it to me over email. I don't check PMs during weekdays, so I'd have to delay any conversation for five days, if you didn't send it over email. Thanks!
~Lief
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
11-01-2004, 06:41 AM | #357 |
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Well Lief, now I feel terrible. I invented the Muslim to make a point. I didn't think you'd think there actually was a Muslim I ran into. I was trying to get across the idea that there are other people out there who believe exactly what you do--except for them Islam (or Hinduism, or any other religion) is the true way, and others need to be converted to theirs. My point was only: "How grateful would you be if someone came along (A Muslim, or Hindu, or whatever) and told you that you were dedicated to a lie, and that you need to see the truth?". I realize you would probably not say that to anyone, you are certainly more respectful than that. But I was responding to your quote which asked "I know that if I believed something that was an outright lie, I'd be very, very grateful if someone helped me out of that difficulty. Especially if that lie was keeping me from experiencing God. Wouldn't you?"
In other words, I was being rather sarcastic. I am very sorry, I hesitated in saying it, and I now see I really shouldn't have said it. I think your desire to have a better understanding of Islam and Hinduism and other faiths is very good. I should also add something I think ought to be noted: in my posts here, you have probably learned more about me than about Hinduism, though certainly you have seen a strong influence of Hinduism, especially Vedanta, in my posts. But there are conservative Hindus, just like there are liberal Christians. Some Hindus believe that only Hinduism is the right way, though this is not a Vedantist idea. Vedanta, for one thing, is more of a philosophy than a denomination. There are three main factions in Hinduism that most fall under: worshippers of Vishnu, worshippers of Shiva, and worshippers of Shakti. All of these believe in all the aspects of God, but for the Vaishnavites, if that is the right spelling (probably not), Vishnu is held most dear. I don't really fall into any of these categories. My ishta-devatas (chosen-ideals) are Brahma and Saraswati. Brahma is not, as I mentioned, very popular in India today, though Saraswati is. In Vedanta, there is a lot of emphasis put on Ramakrishna (who was a historical person, and viewed as an Incarnation of God), and Sarada Devi (wife of Ramakrishna, and also considered an Incarnation). Jesus Christ and the Buddha are also very popular in Vedanta. Ramakrishna was actually a very inter-religious person. He was a Hindu, but in many ways he was a Christian, and a Muslim too. At times he would practice Christianity, and he would have visions of Christ, and when he practiced Islam he would see Allah, and when he practiced Hinduism he would see baby Krishna. He's probably largely responsible for the idea in Vedanta about the equality and validity of all faiths, though that is just my own guess. Anyway, if anyone has any more questions, feel free to ask. Or anyone who wants to step up and take the hotseat is free to do so. Again, Lief, I am very sorry about the conversion comment.
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11-01-2004, 07:46 AM | #358 |
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Thanks Nolendil.....I'm still feeling pretty "happy".
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11-01-2004, 10:36 AM | #359 | |
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the basic idea... the existance of god can never be proved or disproved is a fact the conclusion... without data to prove his/her existance, he/she probably does not exist not a fact, but a pretty solid theory quod erat demonstrandum
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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11-01-2004, 01:00 PM | #360 |
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*comes back to the Moot after a family weekend*
Oh my - I think I better get a very strong cup of tea - I'm gonna need it to catch up on these posts!!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |