10-11-2004, 07:49 AM | #1 |
Fëanorophobic
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Faramir and Hector
We've been doing excerpts of the Illiad for English class this week and I noticed some similarities between Hector and Faramir:
-Hector was called "the tamer of horses" and Faramir was known to be able to calm animals down with his gentleness (I don't have the exact quote for it, but it's there). -All the people of Troy loved Hector, same with Gondor and Faramir. -Neither Hector nor Faramir liked war, yet they both fought to keep their country and its honour safe. -Faramir was the "good" brother and Boromir the "bad" one. Much like Hector and Paris. -Minas Tirith, like Troy, was beset with a long siege. -Also Hector was known in Troy for his "gentle" and "reasonable" speech. Much like the people of Gondor describe Faramir. So what do you guys think, does the comparison hold water? Could the Illiad have been one of Tolkien's inspirations or is it just that such traits are so common that they are embedded subconciously into any heroic war story? |
10-11-2004, 09:52 AM | #2 | |
Elven Loremaster
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You do make some interesting points about Faramir and Hector, though. |
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10-11-2004, 11:44 AM | #3 | |
Hobbit
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10-11-2004, 02:18 PM | #4 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Ah, Faramir had better fortune than Hector and found his Andromanche in Éowyn. He also didn't have his poor little son thrown off of the wall, but that is another, and much less pleasant, story.
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10-11-2004, 02:21 PM | #5 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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10-11-2004, 02:31 PM | #6 | |
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10-11-2004, 05:37 PM | #7 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Actually, I think Paris was quite evil. Very self-centered, never seemed to care that if it were not for his selfish desires, Troy would not have been in such a fix. At times, Hector seems quite exasperated with him. Boromir never caused such grief, though if he'd gotten the Ring, he might have!
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
10-11-2004, 08:15 PM | #8 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
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I have never thought to compare the two but now that it has been brought up I do find that these similarities do seem to hold water. THough I do think the siege of GOndor and the siege of Troy do not have similarities. The wars were for different reasons and the wars were considerably different in length and the Gondor won while Troy lost.
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10-11-2004, 09:04 PM | #9 | |
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Tolkien himself pointed out the Egyptian connections for Arnor and Gondor. He called the Rohirrim "Homeric horsemen". And so on. The classical influences are extensive.
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10-12-2004, 02:33 PM | #10 | |
Fëanorophobic
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Plus, if you condemn Paris for his weakness for Helen, then you're also saying that BOROMIR IS EVIL which (IMHO) he was not. I think that if anything can be blamed on Paris it's that he accepted to be a judge between Venus, Athena and Hera in the first place. |
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10-12-2004, 02:57 PM | #11 | |
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10-12-2004, 04:04 PM | #12 |
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Then there is one crucial difference between Paris and Boromir in action, is there not?
Paris never repented his lust and law-breaking. Boromir did. Both are tragic figures because they are caught up in struggles beyond their ken in one sense. The doom of the age in which they dwelt was with higher powers. But within that doom, they make choices and see consequences and then either continue in their choice or renounce it. The outcomes are quite different though both lose life. Also the argument that great passion (eros in Greek and not limited to lust for woman or ring) justifies breaking the moral law is inadequate. There is no excusing Hitler the Holocaust because he had a passionate hatred of Jews is there? Nor Sadaam using nerve gas because he passionately hated Kurds? Or Lorena Bobbitt because she passionately hated adultery? In fact, the failure to resist the passion is the cause of the evil that follows in both cases of Paris and Boromir. For Boromir, the realization of the passion's effects and consequences results in correction, repentance, and -in a sense- a new start for the Quest. In Paris, refusal to abandon the passion and make repentance results in the destruction of Troy - even in the face of years of suffering and death. If we justify every crime against the individual we victimize as due to a great passion, do we excuse it? I think both examples argue NOT. Then again Paris has an inordinate amount of pride. He, mortal, accepts to be a judge among the goddesses! This is known as hubris in Greek thought (overweening pride or vaunting pride). It is this same hubris that refuses to admit his error in the matter of Helen. The same hubris that results in a siege of a decade and many deaths! Boromir has his hubris, too, but turns from it. Hector bears his part too for not upbraiding his brother and getting him to do the right thing. Imagine Aragorn supporting Boromir had he obtained and kept the Ring successfully. So Paris' failure has contributing causes but not excuses.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 10-12-2004 at 04:13 PM. |
10-12-2004, 04:27 PM | #13 | |
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10-12-2004, 04:29 PM | #14 |
Elf Lord
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Well, Beren3000, I might! but I doubt if Wayfarer would!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-12-2004, 04:32 PM | #15 | |
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10-12-2004, 04:33 PM | #16 | |
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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10-12-2004, 04:45 PM | #17 |
Elf Lord
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Laziness is evil under the right conditions!
Beren3000, the other thread is a little lighter now - but probably not for long! Wayfarer is defining by dictionaries and I am going by examples!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-12-2004, 04:53 PM | #18 |
The Insufferable
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I see, Inked. I just don't care. Understanding just lets me be all the more emphatic when I find myself having to tell you you're wrong.
In any case, once again the distinction that is made is the wrong one. Paris clearly performs an act of evil. Boromir, likewise, clearly attempts to do evil by taking the ring. Attempting to redefine the words used to describe an event so as to claim it was something else is folly of the highest order. Most assuredly, both Paris and Boromir did evil. An evil act should not be excused simply because you do not wish to believe that the individual perpetrating that act was evil. Regardless, you are in error to equate Boromir's lust for the ring with Paris's lust for Helen. While there most certainly are similarities, you cannot overlook the incredible differences: Boromir wanted the ring in order to save his people from destruction, whereas Paris wanted Helen to satisfy his own desires. Furthermore, while Helen's great beauty may have been desirable, Boromir's desire for the ring was at least partially the result of a magical inflamation of the desires he already had. Not to mention that the results had Boromir successfully taken the ring would have been quite different from the results of Paris stealing away Helen. On another subject: It is not really a concern whether Paris was Evil or merely Tragic. All evil is tragic.
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10-12-2004, 05:57 PM | #19 |
Elf Lord
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Wayfarer,
Passion is as passion does. You will not contend that the two passions are unalike successfully. Regardless of the mitigating causes in both cases the passionate desire to excess was the evil. The desires were wrongly acted upon in each case. As you so eloquently argued in our apposite thread on evil in middle earth, so you must argue here. That's the problem with those pesky definitions! And we agree that all evil is ultimately tragic, I think, as well.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-13-2004, 05:34 AM | #20 |
Hobbit
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Coming back to the main topic of the thread, I have something for you mooters. I believe there exists a letter written by Tolkien himself (´don't remember the exact number, but I'll look it up asap) where he talks about the geographical setting of Middle-Earth. He compares (of course) Hobbingen to England and (if remember correctly) Minas Tirith with the site of ancient Troy. Coincidence? Not IMPOV.
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