09-10-2004, 07:35 AM | #21 | |
Elven Warrior
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What I am trying to say is that Gandalf knew there were possibilities not conclusions, and if people could be helped to make the right choices then, and only then, would the "predetermined" event occur - whatever that might be!!
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09-10-2004, 08:19 AM | #22 | |
Enting
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Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? I think so Brain, but without ears, we look like weasels. "The next time I lent an ax to a surgeon, I would pick my century." A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. The Last Alliance of Orcs and Spiders |
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09-10-2004, 10:09 AM | #23 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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09-10-2004, 01:05 PM | #24 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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09-12-2004, 05:36 AM | #25 |
Elven Warrior
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Elrond had, as many elves did, the ability of foresight! Therefore it must be understood that if the children of Iluvitar had the ability to see the future, then surely most of the Maia could and without question the Valar could! Now seeing the future as a vision is something different than the actuality of a free will world. When Elrond views the hopelessness of Arwen staying in Middle-Earth he is seeing the most likely future, the future as seen if one choice is made by Aragorn. There are many choices that can alter what is to be. Take for example the phrase "you were destined to do" as in Aragorn was destined to become the King of Gondor and Arnor! Now, this may have been the destiny of Aragorn and Middle-Erth but it was the choices of Aragorn, and many others as well, that inevitably lead to the predetermind action in time! The choices could have gone as such to make Aragorn king of Gondor, Arnor, and all of Middle-Earth if he had taken the one ring! It is all about free-will and Destiny. Which as I said before is the best Tolkien could do being bound by his own beliefs. I believe I just read something that agrees with my last statement in the begging of Silmarillion, writen by Tolkien himself.
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen |
09-12-2004, 06:02 AM | #26 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I think the elves knew that Sauron would fall but they didn't know when or how, which is why they were doing as much as possible to make that then.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-12-2004, 06:11 AM | #27 |
Elven Warrior
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What I don't understand is that they didn't do all they could to help or stop Sauron. They were leaving when they should have been fighting! What did the elves have to loose!? They were immortal, if they were killed in battle, they go to Valinor! To the halls of Mandos yes, but still to valinor... where they could still one day be removed from the Halls of mandos as well! Why not use all you got to destroy this common enemy, then the survivers flee to Valinor!
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen |
09-12-2004, 06:15 AM | #28 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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They knew that they were going to leave and that men would inherit Middle-earth, so the men obviously needed to pove their woth. If the men had been defeated then I'm sure that the elves would fight but if the men were going to inherit it the needed to be the ones that saved it.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-20-2004, 06:43 AM | #29 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
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I agree with T.D. if the elves interfered it would have been like if a teen was on his quest for adulthood in an ancient tribe of sorts and the parent intervened it would throw off the entire quest and make the teen forever a boy. SO the elves could not interfere unless it was absolutely necessary. Also men are cooler..... Nah! hehehe JK!
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09-20-2004, 07:45 AM | #30 |
Elf Lord
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I don't agree that the Elves did nothing. Remember Gandalf's words to Boromir in the Council of Elrond, about how Sauron was resisted by other means than the strength of men. Essentially, he is saying that the Three Rings were still active in keeping back the tide.
The other thing to bear in mind is that the Elves had been hanging around for ?5,000 years since they were pardoned for Feanor's rebellion and allowed to return to Valinor. It would seem to make sense that in that time there would be a steady trickle of elves packing up and heading back home, not to mention a fair few Sindar hearing those seagulls... Also, we don't know how many Elves there actually were. Many were killed in the Dagorlad at the end of the 2nd Age. The only one we know of who came back to ME after dying was Glorfindel. So, their numbers would be vastly depleted. |
09-20-2004, 11:51 AM | #31 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I didn't say the elves did nothing, i said that they knew that the men had to fight this war as they would be ruling the bigger part of ME. If they had been defeated then the elves would have also attacked Sauron's forces.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-20-2004, 02:36 PM | #32 |
Elven Warrior
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I would like to actually disagree with myself a little. I said the elves did not help the men of ME and this is somehat true. However the elves did fight Sauron's forces and held them off. It is stated, im not sure where, that Galadriel and the forces of Lorien fought off the forces of mordor thrice before the end. So although elves did not help directly, they did fight.
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen |
09-21-2004, 01:44 AM | #33 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Thought someone would make that point! The elves of Lorien and Mirkwood defended their own lands, they didn't attack Sauron's forces. Men did. Erkenbrand's men at Helms Deep. The Rohirrim at the Pelennor. The Rohirrim and Gondorians at the Black Gate. The elves may have slightly aided, but it was men would led the assault
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-23-2004, 12:09 AM | #34 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
And I would also say that given Sauron's plan, the Elves staying and protecting their own lands was exactly right: Sauron divided his forces and fought on too many fronts instead of the crushing blow on Gondor first, then pick off the others piece by piece. FB |
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09-23-2004, 02:08 AM | #35 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I'm notsure but I think the forces of Dol Guldur had been slain in their assaults and when Celeborn and Thranduil met in Mirkwood, no fighting was needed.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-25-2004, 11:26 AM | #36 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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The posts concerning the discussion whether the Elves were allies to Gondor are moved to a new thread: Were the Elves allies to Gondor?
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10-20-2004, 10:50 AM | #37 |
The Intermittent One
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the creation of the dwarves was not destined by eru, yet he took aule's
creations and gave them a place within arda, so what i am trying to say here (in a round-a-bout way) is that free will is the course of things, but that does not mean that eru will not have a destined place for them in the long run. if you understand me, which i don't!! |
10-20-2004, 11:55 AM | #38 |
The Insufferable
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*eyeshift*
Last edited by Wayfarer : 10-20-2004 at 02:04 PM. Reason: Double Post |
10-20-2004, 11:57 AM | #39 | |
The Insufferable
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So, in effect, what you're saying is... "You must have free will! It is your destiny!"
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10-20-2004, 12:20 PM | #40 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Am I seeing double or did that post appear twice!
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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