08-28-2004, 02:53 PM | #141 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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He probably will now you've suggested it.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
08-28-2004, 10:27 PM | #142 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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No-o-o-o-o-o-o!
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08-29-2004, 12:20 AM | #143 |
Elven Maiden
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Hey sorry for butting in but...here's my thoughts:
What is this "evil" you guys are talking about? You speak of gold being tainted by evil, but what is it? Certainly the gold's physical properties haven't changed. It's rather fantastic to say that it was given some sort of spiritual matter, so to speak, that changed it. So what has actually changed about the gold? It's completely subjective. If Sauron used the ring to evil, it's a tool. By pouring his own evil soul into the ring, it's still just a tool. If I am evil, does that mean that the molecules that make up my body are evil? It's all just imaginary. The atoms making up gold can't be evil. If they are, tell me how. Specifically. Therefore, gold can't be evil. Tolkien says it's evil. I don't have quite enough understanding of this, but my guess it that either it was a completely subjective thing, and guilty by association, or else just because it was used for some evil purpose. I guess the only way you could define evil is something that defies Eru. Sauron's self inside the ring was sinful. The matter making up the ring didn't have conciousness, intent- it's incapable of karmic actions. I think the ring is just a tool. Like the "house" Haradrim mentioned or my soul inside my material body (assuming I have one- I'm not claiming that I do). I'd like to know specifically what changes happen to a particle to make it evil. Objectively. |
08-29-2004, 03:13 AM | #144 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Here we go again
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
08-29-2004, 05:05 AM | #145 | ||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
It's a tool, yes, but one that worked on it's own, from the moment it left its master. It created Gollum - Gollum was evil in my opinion, although I suppose others can disagree. The Ring twisted the former Smeagol, that was apparently a hobbit. See what we've got? Without the Ring Gollum be dead by that time, but happy as he lived. Quote:
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08-29-2004, 12:23 PM | #146 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Concur heartily. The Ring was a magical artifact. Magic is either Black or White, whatever relativists might say. Any good action of the Ring's like saving Bilbo from the Sackville-Baggins was incidental, just the cheese in the trap.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
08-29-2004, 01:34 PM | #147 |
Elven Maiden
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Yeah, the ring was evil. Just like an evil man (being?). Any personallity that the ring had was evil too. But I don't believe in evil metal. So while The Ring was evil, the ring wasn't evil.
Last edited by katya : 08-29-2004 at 01:39 PM. |
08-29-2004, 05:35 PM | #148 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
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Im and not going to get started in this again. But I am glad that someone is joining the cause. And we have made it to 8 pages. And no hard feelings. I just hope things dont get out of hand with constant flaming and stuff. That would be too bad so evewryone play nice.
Do Balrogs have wings...... ?
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08-29-2004, 06:02 PM | #149 |
the Shrike
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Actually Katya, you are wrong. The GOLD is tainted by evil. This was posted earlier on in the thread from several excerpts from Morgoth's Ring (in which Morgoth's ring IS middle earth, and his evil de-marked gold even more-so, and is partly the reason that Sauron *could* make a ring of power that powerful.)
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08-29-2004, 06:37 PM | #150 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Quote:
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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08-29-2004, 06:42 PM | #151 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Quote:
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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08-29-2004, 07:58 PM | #152 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
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I know Balrogs have wings I was just amking a joke because someone earlier said I hope he doesnt argue about Balrog's Wings so I made a joke of it. Sorry if it was misinterpreted.
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08-29-2004, 08:34 PM | #153 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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It wasn't misinterpreted. I guess I shoud have added a smiley:
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
08-29-2004, 09:57 PM | #154 |
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oki;lyy dokily thanks for the hints!
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08-29-2004, 11:23 PM | #155 |
Elven Maiden
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Ok, ok, so I guess if Tolkien says the gold is tainted by evil, then it must be. After all, it is a fantasy, and he's the boss. When you write a story, you are the one who creates the universe. So, I guess I'll accept that the gold is evil. But it's still impossible. Because gold can't be evil. I don't think so anyway.
When I said "The Ring is evil, but the ring wasn't evil", I meant that the ring as a person or entity was evil, but the gold wasn't. However, I will retract that statement as I do accept the gold to be evil. Even though it's silly. This is funny!^^ |
08-29-2004, 11:38 PM | #156 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
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the gold can be evil because Melkor tainted it with his evil . SO the gold is evil. The ring is evil and the power fo the ring is evil. and yes I have switrched positions for the moment. If someonee comes along with good evidence supporting rign nonevilness Ill switch again.
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08-30-2004, 02:27 AM | #157 |
the Shrike
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I hope you mean wings of shadow, Attalus!
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08-30-2004, 02:45 AM | #158 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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But even if the gold wasn't evil the Ring still would be because the spirit in the Ring was part of the Ring that couldn't be taken out
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
08-30-2004, 03:22 AM | #159 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
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I totally and only whole-heartledly agree! The god was taitned. THe gold mde the ring and and the ring was tainted. A spirit is put into ring ring becomes more vil. EVrything ise vil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHhahhehehehehhhooo......
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08-30-2004, 05:12 AM | #160 |
the Shrike
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Man, you two are annoying.
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