06-03-2004, 09:45 AM | #1 | |
Sapling
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Men & Elves dwelling together.
There is a passage always makes me curious.
From Chapter 17: Quote:
But the passage gives me the impression the elves saw the beginnings of trouble arising from the situation. I wonder if this is so, but what might it have been? Did the elves notice anything that maybe could have been a warning about what would happen with Numenor, men growing envious of immortality? I do wonder about all of this. Or could it have been something as innocent as the fact that some aspects of the peoples' culture would be dependant upon whether or not the people are mortals, and because of this Men and Elves could never share a culture, something required to really mingle?
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“Then the Elf turned and looked up, and Tuor met the piercing glance of his sea-grey eyes, and knew that he was of the high folk of the Noldor.” |
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06-03-2004, 10:13 AM | #2 |
founder of the color blue
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I dont know what their reasons were, but I think your last point is probably pretty close. There had to be a lot of cultural differences, on every level, for the simple fact that men die. Probably didnt want too many elf chicks falling in love with man dudes and vice versa, because that would mess everything up. Probably a culture thing, plus, maybe men are better ruled by their own kind anyway.
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06-03-2004, 10:18 AM | #3 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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It seems like more of a choice that the Eldar gave Men, than it does a requirement that they dwell seperately. Afterall, there were great differences between the two kindreds as far as fate, doom, and mortality. I get the impression that the Elves believed that Men should live in a more ordered society, independently under their own governments, and develope their own cultures outside of the Eldar. However, if they chose to remain among the Eldar, they were given leave to do so.
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06-03-2004, 10:26 AM | #4 |
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Oh, you want to have an intelligent conversation. Okay, well, I should go...
Yeah, but I am sure that the idea arose because they were having a few problems. The men probably kept getting drunk and unruly, and the elves, being quite lofty, couldnt handle it. Men are the superior race. Anyway, that is a good point, but do you think it was entirely a choice? Say the men had decided that they didnt want to rule themselves, would the elves have been accepting of this?
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06-03-2004, 10:44 AM | #5 | ||
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
From the published Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflon edition, 1977. Quote:
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06-03-2004, 10:49 AM | #6 | |
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Quote:
Besides, I think you're onto something about the 'elf chick' thing. And kind of a nice, Elvish way of putting into their words what we might express as, "There goes the neighborhood!"
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06-03-2004, 02:02 PM | #7 | |
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Quote:
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Well, there it is. Last edited by Beor : 06-03-2004 at 02:04 PM. |
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06-03-2004, 05:44 PM | #8 | |
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Re: Men & Elves dwelling together.
Quote:
I think the reason for the division between the two kindreds was the great cultural differences, as a result of different fates. They made friendships and alliances, but I wonder if the Elves had kept themselves more separated if it wasn't for the common enemy, Morgoth. It must have been very difficult for them to understand each other, and it seems to me that the Edain were more interested in learning the habits and lore of the Elves, than the other way around.
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06-04-2004, 01:21 AM | #9 | |
Sapling
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Quote:
As for Men deciding they do not want to rule themselves? I really can't imagine this. But love between mortals and immortals could be a dangerous thing. This at least happened once in Dorthonion. Sister Golden Hair, The grief the elves feel for the swift passing of Men is something I hadn't considered as a factor. Am affraid I was taking the self-centered mannish point of view here. It could be the grief was more the elves needed to see so often. I have interpreted "Yet many of the Edain had delight in the friendship of the Elves, and dwelt among them for so long as they had leave..." as the Men having to reluctantly leave the company of the Elves. But it doesn't have to be this way. I also got the same idea from the statement about Men being in service of the Kings for some time. But it could well be that most Men did not wish to stay in service of Elven-Kings. Artanis, While I do not think there was any dangerous envy of immortality yet, I am not sure I agree that this could not happen if Men are living among the elves. I have this opinion when taking into consideration the causes of the Numenorean's envy. Really their life was so great and accomplishments so much that they hungered for more time in the world. While that doesn't prove this dread of death could happen to Men living among elves, I do not see how having elves around could prevent it in all cases. In fact I can imagine how being around elves might contribute to envy. The effects Tolkien describes that dwelling in Aman would have on a mortal, specificly that he would seem to pass extremely fast, might also hold true for Men among the elves who age so slow that a mortal wouldn't perceive it over a lifetime. I think the major factor at this point in time which was probably on the minds of the elves is the differences in culture and custom that could not be overcome since the two people are so different. Different ways of looking at the world, different minds, and wholy different motives in life. Thanks for the thoughts everyone.
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“Then the Elf turned and looked up, and Tuor met the piercing glance of his sea-grey eyes, and knew that he was of the high folk of the Noldor.” Last edited by Tatië : 06-04-2004 at 01:24 AM. |
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06-04-2004, 06:29 AM | #10 |
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I think the difference in fates between Elves and Men must have caused many substantial differences in culture aswell as in mind. Despite the similarities between them (and the fact that they could breed together), they were IMO not meant to live together as one community.
A middle road between the two cultures, like the Numenorean civilisation, is possible but we all know how one imbalance could send the whole island crashing down in no time. If Men and Elves would have lived together, in one community, I think the light, wisdom and beauty of the Elves would have gotten the upper hand. I think the Men would have been overwhelmed and would in the long run have become - or tried to become - a sort of second-rate Elves. That would have been a sad thing, even the Elves would have considered it so. This was never the destiny of Men; they had to be able to shape their own destiny, and for that they would have needed a measure of independance.
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06-04-2004, 06:48 AM | #11 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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06-04-2004, 08:50 AM | #12 |
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The Athrabeth (sp) indicates that each had great difficulty understanding the fundamental nature of the others condition.
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06-21-2004, 12:45 AM | #13 |
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personally, I feel that neither one is greatwer than the other. But in response to the topic; Men and Elves probably should n't dwell so close to each other b/c they are each envious of each others's gifts even if hte Elves don't admit it
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06-21-2004, 04:08 AM | #14 | |
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Quote:
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09-24-2004, 01:55 AM | #15 |
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I think it is the same reason that Men are not permitd to go to Valinor. If men were to dwel with the elves they would eventualy desire the immortality. They would see their fathers and sons die while elves lived on, it would cause discention(spelling?). I don't think it was a choice so much as a fact of life(and a fact of imortal life)
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12-08-2004, 01:55 PM | #16 | |
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Quote:
I believe it was likely mutual .Men would have to endure the ageless grace of the Eldar as their love ones and they themselves would age and eventually die. Even to the most understanding of persons that would bring a feeling of injustice and unhappiness, I would guess. Even to those wise enough not to feel an unjust animosity against the Eldar. And to Elves, this Humans, that were so akin to them, with whom they could built friendships and love were so short lived, that to live with them was to live with the constant pain of the lost, as they passed away in an unsmilingly without end chain of birth and death.
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01-03-2005, 04:25 PM | #17 |
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maybe it was jealousy, i mean, generations of men go by, and you still have the same old elves, still alive
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02-06-2005, 02:04 PM | #18 |
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To add to this, heres another question; Do you think there was a degree of racism between them?
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02-06-2005, 02:24 PM | #19 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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02-07-2005, 01:23 AM | #20 | |
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Quote:
Twista, in the Athrabeth, Andreth comments about humans, to the Elves, being creatures "to be loved a little maybe, and yet creatures of less worth, upon whom ye may look down from the height of your power and your knowledge, with a smile, or with pity, or with a shaking of heads." And Finrod answers, "Alas, you speak near the truth. At least of many of my people; but not of all, and certainly not of me." So apparently quite a few besides Thingol were rather racist.
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