Power of the Balrogs and Elven Kings

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Of course Gothmog was the greatest of the Balrogs. He seems lesser than Durin's Bane because the only extant narratives dealing with him is when the Balrogs were a different Race altogether, when they were bred by Morgoth and were far less in stature and power.

Just curious, did Morgoth actually breed Balrogs? I imagined they were Maiar?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Kirinki54


Just curious, did Morgoth actually breed Balrogs? I imagined they were Maiar?

I believe Inoldonil is refering to a different account by Tolkien. There are many different accounts of different things. He changed his mind alot it seems. But I think the final account was that Balrogs were maiar.

[Wayfarer]

As to the initial question, the balrogs (and morgoth) didn't use spells because it wasn't nescessary. Most magic in tolkien isn't the type that can blow your enemies away (unless you're manwe ). They had flaming swords, and superhuman strength, speed, and endurance versus elves with sharp swords and good spped and endurance.


PS... grond wasn't a hammer, was it? I thought the sil said it was a mace?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer



PS... grond wasn't a hammer, was it? I thought the sil said it was a mace?

Grond was a hammer. In the Silmarillion it is called: "the Hammer of the Underworld."

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
As to the initial question, the balrogs (and morgoth) didn't use spells because it wasn't nescessary. Most magic in tolkien isn't the type that can blow your enemies away (unless you're manwe ). They had flaming swords, and superhuman strength, speed, and endurance versus elves with sharp swords and good spped and endurance.


PS... grond wasn't a hammer, was it? I thought the sil said it was a mace?

It seems Durin´s Bane in LoTR is different in many ways, because it actually used a spell in Moria. Quite powerful too, as Gandalfs counter-spell did not break it, but the door exploded instead.

Grond was a mace of Morgoth, but Sauron later named his battering ram after it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Kirinki54


Grond was a mace of Morgoth, but Sauron later named his battering ram after it.

What is the difference between a hammer and a mace? The Silmarillion "Then Morgoth hurled aloft grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder." Chapter (Of The Ruin Of Beleriand And The Fall Of Fingolfin)

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
What is the difference between a hammer and a mace? The Silmarillion "Then Morgoth hurled aloft grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder." Chapter (Of The Ruin Of Beleriand And The Fall Of Fingolfin)

A mace is more like a club, and I had a recollection of seeing Grond described in this way. Now that I think of it, was that description in the Sil? I better go look. But anyway your quote is very right so perhaps hammer it is?

[Comic Book Guy]

Well the orcs of Sauron in the third age, named their ram Grond also.

Long had it been forging in the dark smithies of Mordor, and its hideous head, founded of black steel, was shaped in the likeness of a ravening wolf; on it spells of ruin lay. Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, Orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it.

Now if it was a proper memory, it would be around about the same design would it not? (Sorry for going off topic)

Does anybody know if Tolkiens use of magic was deliberate, and what his views on it was? I believe he wanted to be original and different, like his elves and his dragons instead of the 'magic and fireballs every five minutes' style so waywarer you are correct.

[Wayfarer]

Yes, Grond was called the hammer of the underworld. But it was described as a mace.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Yes, Grond was called the hammer of the underworld. But it was described as a mace.

Can you tell me where I can find this? It does not seem to be in the Sil.

[Wayfarer]

I think it was in the back, in the names reference? Try there.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I think it was in the back, in the names reference? Try there.

It does say both mace and hammer. Thanks Wayfarer.

[afro-elf]

I have a memory ( though it could be false) about Grond being a mace.

Maybe I'm confusing it with the Lord of the Nazgul. Didn't he wield a mace?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
I have a memory ( though it could be false) about Grond being a mace.

Maybe I'm confusing it with the Lord of the Nazgul. Didn't he wield a mace?

I don't know about that afro-elf, but Gothmog wield a mace, and so did other Balrogs. After they killed Fingon, they beat him into the dust with them. It must have been one of the weopons of choice.

[Ñólendil]

Yes, the Witch-king used a mace when he fought Éowyn.

[afro-elf]

Wow!

How many Balrogs fought Fingon?

[Ñólendil]

In my opinion, no one knows, since Tolkien never wrote any detailed narratives with the 'LR Balrogs' in them. In the published Silmarillion, Fingon fought Gothmog. While other Balrogs came up from behind and cast their thongs of fire about the Noldorin King, Gothmog hewed his head off with his axe. I don't know about beating him into the dust with maces.

[Sister Golden Hair]

There were two Balrogs that fought Fingon, and I don't think they chopped off his head exactly. Here is the passage: "But now in the western battle Fingon and Turgon were assailed by a tide of foes thrice greater then all of the forces that were left to them. Gothmog,, Lord of Balrogs, High Captian of Angband was come; and he drove a dark wedge between the Elven hosts, surrounding King Fingon, and thrusting Turgon and Hurin aside toward the Fen of Serech. Then he turned upon Fingon. That was a grim meeting. At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up out of the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces, and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood." (The Silmarillion- Chapter 20-Of The Fifth Battle-Nirnaeth Arnoediad)

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up out of the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces, and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood." (The Silmarillion- Chapter 20-Of The Fifth Battle-Nirnaeth Arnoediad)

I always pictured all Balrogs to be armed like Durin´s Bane; that is with a sword of fire and a many-thonged whip. (I think a have seen a description of Balrogs as a group all using these weapons?)

But here are maces and an axe. Perhaps this is one of the differences that Balrogs underwent in Tokien´s writings.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy

Now if it was a proper memory, it would be around about the same design would it not?

No, it was not really a proper memory or a replica of the original Grond, but more of an honorific from Sauron to to his old Master Morgoth.

The later Grond was far from a mace or hammer, it consisted of an enormous battering ram wrought in black steel and suspended on chains between a construction of huge girders.
(The girders are my own speculation; the text doesn´t say so.)