04-17-2004, 01:07 PM | #1 |
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The Roads of Middle-Earth
The Great East Road, The Greenway, The Old South Road, the various Roads around Gondor and through Mirkwood:
What do we know about each? When was each one built and by whom? I vaguely remember mention about the East-West Road in Eriador being older than the North-South Road... and that the former was used more by Elves and Dwarves and the latter more by Men and Hobbits (or do I have any of that backwards or mixed up?). What does JRRT tell us about the roads? Last edited by Valandil : 04-27-2004 at 04:50 PM. |
04-17-2004, 02:28 PM | #2 |
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There is an article, either in unfinished tales of HoME about the dwarves, mentioning that there had built the great east west road, from Beleriand to the Iron Hills, in the first age, to link there various cities. I believe there is a paragraph or two about the bridge of the great east west road across the Anduin, ruined by the time of the war of the Ring, and just a ford.
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04-17-2004, 04:25 PM | #3 |
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And don't forget the roads of Numenor.
"In Numenor all journeyed from place to place on horseback... Therefore the roads of Numenor were for the most part unpaved, made and tended for riding, since coaches and carriages were little used in the earlier centuries, and heavy cargoes were borne by sea. The cheif and most ancient road, suitable for wheels, ran from the greatest port, Romenna in the east, to the royal city of Armenelos, and thence on to the Valley of the Tombs and the Meneltarma; and the road was early extended to Ondosto within the borders of Forostar, and thence to Andunie in the west. Along it passed wains bearing stone from the Northlands that was most esteemed for building, and timber in which the westlands were rich." Unfinished Tales. Hence the technology for Rohan and Arnor's roads later in Middle-earth.
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04-19-2004, 08:37 PM | #4 |
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Maybe the East-West road in Eriador being older than the North-South Road has something to do with the elves using it when they went into the West for the first time in the Silmarillion? Or would a road from so long ago have eroded by the Third Age? I don't know cos I've only read the Silmarillion once but that's my initial thought about it…
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04-27-2004, 04:49 PM | #5 | |
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Quote:
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04-27-2004, 10:19 PM | #6 |
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The East-West road was built on the path the Elves took as they marched to the sea. It wasn't necessarily built as they traveled the first time.
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05-10-2015, 10:46 PM | #7 |
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Bumping this because I've just been thinking about it again.
Of the two "Great Roads" - I'm inclined to think that the East-West Road was indeed built by the Dwarves in the First Age. It does not go straight to a Dwarf Kingdom in the east (unless Elrond took over an abandoned one to start Rivendell). But maybe the Dwarves would not have wanted that anyway. I think the North-South Road was built by the Numenoreans and Dunedain, and perhaps not all at once. In face - maybe the Numenoreans first built it from Tharbad to the Waymeet. Later - Arnor could have added the segment splitting off from that which runs north through Bree and on to Fornost. Last of all - I surmise that Gondor built the portion from Tharbad on into Gondor - starting about the 800's of the Third Age or later.
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05-11-2015, 01:40 AM | #8 |
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Tharbad is as far up the Gwathló as a shallower drafted vessel could go, isn’t it? You just pointed out that it was probably the chief port of Arnor; though maybe the Dúnedain also had one or more along the Baranduin; and the Elves allowed them to use Lindon, at least when Gondor’s expeditionary force under Eärnur arrived in 1975. (Lindon was a primary port-of-call for the Númenóreans for at least 1500 years in the Second Age.)
Pelargir was the principal port of the Faithful Númenóreans during the Second Age, founded about 550 years after Umbar, about a century after the Nazgûl first appeared. So there are Dúnedain settlements from the late middle of the Second Age just east of Lindon and along the mouth of the Anduin. For the Númenóreans, like the early English colonists of America, by far the easiest way to travel must have been by sea or river: by ship. When Elendil arrived, all that changed. He and his sons set about building royal fortresses immediately. But think: did the Númenóreans build all those cities and fortresses between 3319 and 3429–3441, a scant 110 or 122 years? Not likely: there must have been communities there already, towns and cities they strengthened, fortified, and enlarged. Moreover, Elendil needed a royal road for communication and trade with the southern half of his realm. That was the North-South Road. He didn’t use it during the War of the Last Alliance because he and Gil-galad passed through Imladris (Elrond and more troops) and down the Anduin past Greenwood and Lórien, Khazad-dûm, and the Men of the Vales of Anduin (more troops). By the same token, when Isildur returned north, he used the same Anduin road because he wanted to go first to Imladris and take council with Elrond. (He missed the meeting.) There is a note at the end of “Aldarion and Erendis” in Unfinished Tales that Aldarion met Galadriel at Tharbad. (She and Celeborn were living in Eregion). But “Appendix D: The Port of Lond Daer”, indicates the swamps around Tharbad weren’t drained, and perhaps the bridge wasn’t constructed, until at least the late Second Age, when the North-South Road became economically and politically important to the Númenórean kingdoms in exile. Last edited by Alcuin : 05-11-2015 at 01:42 AM. |
05-20-2015, 05:38 PM | #9 |
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Yes - you must be right. If the North-south road was not already finished by the time Gondor and Arnor were founded - it was certainly complete by the end of the Second Age - at the time of the War of the Last Alliance.
I remember now in the UT story, "Disaster of the Gladden Fields" - that it is written as though Isildur had the option to take the road north, all the way up to the east-west road, then from there east to Rivendell. But he elected to go the shorter route. The longer would have been fast with horses - due to the roads, but his party was not mounted.
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05-20-2015, 11:14 PM | #10 |
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Isildur’s was the longer road along the east bank of the Anduin: He wanted to consult Elrond about Sauron’s Ring, which had begun to trouble him. The North-South Road was shorter: It was the hypotenuse of a right triangle, with a bridge built by the Dúnedain along the East-West Road (long fallen into ruin by Bilbo’s time) as the right angle.
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05-20-2015, 11:17 PM | #11 |
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But he wanted to get to Rivendell anyway - even apart from consulting with Elrond. That was where his wife and youngest son (me... Valandil!) were waiting for him.
The way along Anduin was faster to Rivendell, for men on foot.
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05-22-2015, 06:59 AM | #12 |
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Can we build a list of the principal roads we know about?
Last edited by Alcuin : 05-22-2015 at 11:36 PM. Reason: fixed some errors Valandil caught - thanks Val! |
05-22-2015, 08:11 AM | #13 |
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Wow - very comprehensive!
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07-29-2015, 09:30 AM | #14 |
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Yes indeed! Quite comprehensive! Well done Alcuin!
I guess I would be curious about the mountain passes through the Misty Mountains. There was the High Pass which I for some reason have it in my brain that it is effectively a part of the East West Road, and the Pass of Caradhras which the Fellowship attempted to take. Were there any others? And what about the White Mountains? Was the only way around them through Gondor by the Anduin, or around the coastal point of Andrast? Other than the Dimholt road that led to the Path of the Dead, were there any other way over these mountains? I can't think of any.
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07-29-2015, 04:41 PM | #15 |
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Snowdog, there were at least three passes through the Misty Mountains.
The High Pass or North Pass went near Rivendell. There seem to have been lower and upper roads: when Thorin & Co went over the mountains, they used the upper road because Orcs were waylaying travelers along the lower way. The Redhorn Pass went from Hollin to Dimrill Dale, over the ruined city-state of Moria. Tolkien also mentioned a pass at the head of the Gladden River, but I know no details. I cannot find the citation, but I believe the Fallohide Hobbits may have used a pass north of the High Pass to go over the Misty Mountains when they left the northern Dales of Anduin where the ancestors of the Rohirrim knew them; if not, then they used the High Pass. Aragorn indicated the White Mountains had no passes (at least, none that would serve his purpose), and so in desperation to defend Pelargir from the fleet of Umbar dared to use the Way of the Dead. Recall that Amroth and Nimrodel were separated at Belfalas because Nimrodel and her companions became lost crossing the White Mountains: That might mean they tried to cross despite without a mountain pass. It’s off-topic, but there was a pass in the Blue Mountains that formed Mithlond at the end of the First Age. Cirith Gorgor was the pass through the Ash Mountains. Minis Ithil was built to control the pass into Mordor through the Shadow Mountains. I can’t find a citation, but it looks as if there might have been a pass into Nurn at the head of the river running to Umbar; I believe the folks at Middle Earth Role Playing put one on their map, and while that wouldn’t mean Tolkien intended it, it sure looks like a reasonable place. On the other hand, Sauron wasn’t known for his hospitality, and chose Mordor specifically because it was hard to enter from the West, where the Númenóreans were making landfalls and colonizing during the Second Age. Back on topic: Has anyone ever considered that, since Umbar was the principal Númenórean settlement in Middle-earth, most of their roads originally ran to and from there? The road from Near Harad (that’s where Umbar is, right?) through South Gondor to Pelargir must has been part of the primary route. To this day, US Route 1 is still called “King’s Highway” in parts of the United States: it was originally built by the English crown as a royal post road to link its principal colonial settlements. Before the Revolution, it ran from Charleston to Boston. Most Númenórean settlements were south of Umbar in the Second Age, and while travel must at first have been mostly by ship, as it was in the American colonies in the seventeenth century and much of the eighteenth century, their roads must have been well-developed by the end of the Second Age. |
07-29-2015, 07:44 PM | #16 |
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Fascinating thread Well done, all of you!
Susie
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01-27-2016, 09:56 PM | #17 | |
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Quote:
Using material from HoME is tricky, because Tolkien subsequently dropped a lot of it. But if he did keep this idea, then it would explain how Nimrodel crossed the White Mountains, and how she and her companions (particularly Mithrellas, who married Imrazôr of Dol Amroth and bore him two children, one of whom was the ancestor of Prince Imrahil in Return of the King) became separated. Tolkien describes Scāda Pass as dangerous, windy, and snowy: many people died trying to use it. Scāda Pass was associated with the Paths of the Dead. It was originally the way Tolkien considered getting Aragorn to Pelargir as he devised the tale. The pass was on one side or another of Dwimorberg, the Haunted Mountain beneath which the Paths of the Dead ran: Irensaga was to the west of Dwimorberg, and Starkhorn to the east, but I did not discover which side the pass was on. Presumably it was so dangerous that Aragorn would dare the Paths of the Dead instead; but perhaps he was more interested in recruiting the Dead Men of Dunharrow to the War of the Ring. There are four other passes that appear in War of the Ring and Treason of Isengard. All of them lead into Mordor. The most prominent of these is the Nargil (or Narghil) Pass at the head of the Harnen River, marking the ancient boundary between South Gondor and Harad, over the southern mountains of Mordor into Nurn. The pass was retained for quite some time, but did not make it into the published maps of LotR, perhaps because it is inconsequential to the tale. There appears to be another, unnamed pass over the Ephel Dúath at the head of the Poros River, which divides Ithilien from South Gondor. This pass can still be found on one of the published maps in RotK: Look on the most detailed map showing Rohan, Gondor, and western Mordor, at the head of the River Poros, to left of the word Shadow (in Mountains of Shadow). There are two more passes into Mordor marked on the WotR map. Both are in the Ered Lithui, the northern mountains of Mordor. The first is almost due north of Barad-dûr, just west of the south-jutting spur of the mountains on which Barad-dûr was built. Although the detailed published map of RotK shows this region, there is no indication of a pass there, so perhaps that idea was dropped. The other was well east, about halfway between the Barad-dûr south-spur of the mountains and the end of the mountain-chain where eastern Mordor opened to Rhûn. I would assume that, if the notion of the Nargil Pass wasn’t dropped, a road ran from Umbar to Mordor through that pass: it is the natural way to go. And I would assume it was guarded, like the other passes, by old works of Gondor (Minas Ithil/Morgul, Narchost and Carchost). After Sauron declared himself openly some seventy years before the War of the Ring, that road must have been very busy, perhaps the busiest road in all Middle-earth. Even before then, there was probably a lot of traffic along the road, since according to the Tale of Years, “Sauron’s emissaries” were busy stirring up Umbar to attack Gondor. I wonder if it was one of the places Aragorn visited in his travels. (I also discovered that these passes have been mentioned once before on Entmoot, long ago.) |
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08-17-2016, 06:00 AM | #18 |
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I think one reason that the un-named pass over the Ephel Dúath at the head of the Poros Rivermay have been dropped would be it would have taken the incentive of having the Haradrim travel up through Ithilien to Mordor. Just a thought.
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