03-19-2004, 04:56 AM | #901 | |
Elf Lord
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. . . thanks! |
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03-19-2004, 04:58 AM | #902 | |
Elf Lord
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03-19-2004, 05:30 AM | #903 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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These weren't people forced to do things by arrogant kings or pharoahs. They weren't describing things they didn't witness, like the workers in Egypt. The gospel writers also were people who had everything to lose, by what they were doing. They were people ready to perish for what they wrote, and they were writing their own experiences. |
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03-19-2004, 06:27 AM | #904 | |||
Elf Lord
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However, the reasoning seems flawed to me that any religion that involves itself in religious wars a) Is bad for society b) Is wrong to include in its beliefs that it is the only truth. For a), I think this should be pretty self apparent. Christianity is hugely beneficial to society. It is impossible, I believe, to calculate the benefit we have given to society through our churches. I suppose one would have to know something about it, and I'm afraid I don't have statistics. Have you ever heard of "Food for the Hungry"? The group that goes around the world trying to feed the needy. Man, that's only one small example (though it's a big organization). Christianity has been of immense help to society, and we've seen from the example of the religious diversity of America that other religions too, which have previously held religious wars, can also be of service. b) Let's say my brother believes 2 + 2 = 4, and my other brother believes it's 3. They argue. My brother who believes the answer is 4 hits my brother who believes the answer is 3. Obviously, the first brother was wrong to hit the other. Does that immediately follow that not only were they wrong to hit their brother, but he should say and believe "all right, 2 + 2 = 4 or 3." Compromise has its boundaries. The issues we're talking about aren't as clear cut as mathematics, but on a different scale, they are the same thing. The fact that participants of a religion might have led a war wrongly against another people does not mean that the religion in itself is not the only truth. Quote:
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What of fulfilled prophesy? That is something that is solid, easy to confirm and possible to use to validate or knock down your beliefs. What of miracles? For example, someone in here recently said that prayer used on a person right before surgery caused the cancer to completely disappear. I can go on endlessly about my answered prayers, many of which remarkable. I think that the way I can make that evidence the most clear is with the simple fact that the majority of my answers have been postively answered. So many of my prayers have been answered in fact, that mere days after starting my "Spiritual Relationship document" (after I received the Born Again experience), I had to stop writing the answered prayers down in the document, because there were so many. In any case, miracles, some particularly startling ones especially, can be a strong evidence. Other spiritual experiences can also be perfectly valid. For example, some of the times I've encountered angels or demons are times where they affected real people and events, and weren't just sensed. I can cite some examples of this. Spiritual experiences can go on and on, but they are not mere perceptions of reality. They are real experiences that people go through. Whether they are of God or of scientific explanation, they are real experiences, and they must have explanations. |
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03-19-2004, 06:31 AM | #905 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Faith is involved, but it doesn't have to be without any foundation. Paul wrote in one of his epistles that faith for those that saw what he was doing didn't have to be based upon human wisdom, but upon demonstration of the Spirit's power. One of the really wild things I've discovered through these debates on Entmoot is something about perceptions of Atheism and Christianity. Atheism actually is what it claims Christianity is- blind faith. There can be no evidence that there is no God. Christianity, on the other hand, offers huge numbers of evidence that there is a God. Looking at it logically, which should be easier to believe? Quote:
Someone outside of the Christian faith actually experiencing the real God I believe in also is possible to me. For examples of this, one can actually look in the Old Testament. There was an old pagan in the Old Testament who received prophesies from God, concerning Israel. There was a medium whom many believed God answered by sending the spirit of Samuel to. However, when one is claiming things about absolute truth, I think it definitely makes a difference how good your factual information is. Quote:
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03-19-2004, 10:11 AM | #906 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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the above posts you quoted are from me... not IR... which is a perfectly understandable mistake considering the vast amout of quoting
i'll try to get to responses when i have the time to address it properly on the bushido quote, i take it to mean that one cannot truely understand even ones own religion without having understanding of other's religions... since this takes one outside of their own baises, and looks towards the concepts of as a whole which leads me to a question for you... why do you think that so many different versions of what is the true "will of god" exist among mankind?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
03-19-2004, 10:39 AM | #907 | |
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But I'm just a simple Hobbit at heart...
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ă ĂĄ Ă« ?* Ăł Ăș Ă© Ă€ ĂŻ ö à ñ Ă Ă Ă° Ă Âź âą [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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03-19-2004, 10:54 AM | #908 | ||||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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03-19-2004, 11:25 AM | #909 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
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a vast majority of scientists believe in evolution on a macro scale (i.e. apes to humans)... but until is is actually observed (i.e. a strain of apes developing human cognitive abilities over millions of years of observation) it is not a fact i'm not an atheist in the strict sense of the word anyway... probably closer to agnostic... i think that the existance of god can never be proven, and find it very easy to believe Quote:
this is not to say that faith without question is always a bad thing... but it always has the potential to become a bad thing Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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03-19-2004, 06:05 PM | #910 | |
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Now I'll grant you that a scientific fact is something that can be verified over and over again.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ĂĂĄ Ă«?* ĂłĂș Ă©Ă€ ĂŻĂ¶ĂŒ Ăñ Ă Ă Ă° Ă Âź ç Ă„ âą ĂŠ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 03-19-2004 at 06:06 PM. |
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03-19-2004, 06:14 PM | #911 |
the Shrike
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Just a general question, but what does everyone think about the 'demonisation' of Mary Magdalene? I just finished reading the davinci code, and it postulates that Mary was a direct descendent from the House of Benjamin (?), and not a whore (this was supposedly a move by the church to discredit her at a much later stage.) Thoughts?
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03-19-2004, 06:25 PM | #912 | |
Elf Lord
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But does the scrolls contain? So what if they have parts of every book in the Bible, does it mean anything? |
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03-19-2004, 07:46 PM | #913 | ||||||
Quasi Evil
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how would they diagnose say Hamlet? King Arthur? Achilles? Odysseus? They could probably write reams on those figures too. As to what the point of it would be Im not really sure. Quote:
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Now for YOU, the divine IS Christianity and thatâs where you reach the ceiling. It doesnât go up any higher for you. You are inside that bubble. Therefore the way I think makes no logical sense to you. And you keep coming back to âwell but doctors say jesus was right minded.â to which my only response can be âthat doesnât matter.â Quote:
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Note: Im playing the devilâs advocate here just so you know. I donât necessarily hold to that specific way of thinking BUT it makes it clear that your argument can easily be shown to be empty. By the way Ill take your confusion between my comments and brownjenkinâs comments as a compliment (to me). *tips hat to bj * I find many of his arguments about as compelling as Ive seen on this message board.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 03-19-2004 at 07:50 PM. |
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03-19-2004, 08:56 PM | #914 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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03-19-2004, 09:18 PM | #915 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ĂĂĄ Ă«?* ĂłĂș Ă©Ă€ ĂŻĂ¶ĂŒ Ăñ Ă Ă Ă° Ă Âź ç Ă„ âą ĂŠ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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03-19-2004, 09:57 PM | #916 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I would think that people would be more worried about being "possessed with seven devils" than prostitution, really...
Ri, ancient tradition states that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, though I'm not sure if it's that one, and I'm not sure that the tradition dates back to Apostolic times. It is a VERY old tradition, however. Have you seen the Passion?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
03-19-2004, 10:10 PM | #917 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Yes, I'm aware it's tradition, but haven't seen enough to judge for myself
No, I haven't seen the movie - I have a big problem with movie violence, and I'm sure I would either throw up or pass out in that movie. I'd like to get it when it comes out on DVD, and I can control the settings a little more. Have you seen it? Is it out, or coming out, in Russia?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ĂĂĄ Ă«?* ĂłĂș Ă©Ă€ ĂŻĂ¶ĂŒ Ăñ Ă Ă Ă° Ă Âź ç Ă„ âą ĂŠ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
03-19-2004, 10:16 PM | #918 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I did; we have a CD. Interestingly, pirating electronics isn't illegal here...
It was amazing; it was definitely brutal, but it was worth it, in my opinion. But I'm afraid that's all I can say right now; I need to sign off (5:00 A. M. here); if you want, feel free to email me, and we discuss the film via that media. :-)
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
03-20-2004, 02:01 PM | #919 | |||
Elf Lord
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Insidious Rex "Jesus was crucified for his beliefs because he was crazy." Lief Erikson "Jesus was not crazy- the psychiatrists have certified that." Insidious Rex "The doctors don't matter." Insidious Rex "Christianity has a divine thread in it, but is a flawed religion." Lief Erikson "It is not flawed. We can see that because of these and these and these evidences." Insidious Rex "Those evidences don't matter. More veil." At least, that's how I'm seeing it, anyway. It's getting a little frustrating. Can't respond to more now- I have to go. Talk to you more later. ~Lief |
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03-20-2004, 02:54 PM | #920 |
the Shrike
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Well, I would think that because the psychiatrists haven't personally evaluated him, that it would be a bit hard to draw conclusions on whether he was delusional or not.
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