03-09-2004, 04:27 PM | #941 | |
Elven Warrior
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ahahaha.....this might sound a little jaded, but i'd almost pay to see that.... I've always been weary around people who are not willing to look at both sides of the story, and who are so focused on their own way of thinking that they can become ignorant to the possibility that they could potentially be getting something wrong *really, the world is flat, so say otherwise makes you a satanic worshipper* Just my two cents.
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If you must judge others.....do not judge others by the height they have climbed; rather, judge them by the depths they have risen from. Think before you act, but act before it's too late. He is a man of sense who does not grieve for what he has not, but rejoices in what he has. You can stand tall without standing on someone. You can be a victor without having victims. The Utopian Oldschool Champ. http://games.swirve.com/utopia www.Orderofavalon.com |
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03-09-2004, 05:08 PM | #942 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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I'm thinking it over IRex. She means well, in a very annoying way, but she's just recently been gleefully sucked into a hardcore Christian "cult"....with her recent move to Colorado. Actually, she needed some kind of opiate though! Her kid is 30 though! I think he knows the real score!
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03-09-2004, 06:07 PM | #943 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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GTG get ready for the field trip - see you guys in a few days! ps - Nurv - it's NOT that I don't "wish" to accept th. of ev.; it's that I have looked at it and honestly just don't see lots of hard evidence to support it. As I've said, I'm rather neutral about both theories, but to me, creationism seems MORE supported by what is actually SEEN - but neither one, because of their very nature of "what happened in the PAST", even CAN be fully supported. Ask you teacher about the moths, if you want to - I'd be interested to hear what she says. IIRC (but I could be wrong, please forgive me if I am) both BOP and Cirdan agreed with me that the moth study ONLY demonstrated natural selection. There's nothing wrong with that, either - I just heartily object when it's presented as "proof" of macroevolution or beneficial mutations. ANd again, his methodology was wrong, because of things like they were nocturnal, etc. I see what you're saying about Creationism being a "simpler" theory, but have no time to address it - I'm already SOOOO late for getting ready for the field trip
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-10-2004, 01:50 AM | #944 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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03-22-2004, 05:49 PM | #945 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I just remembered I forgot to post about the field trip - the museum was quite nicely set up, and the staff was v. friendly.
An interesting point they brought up re dating - they've taken legal samples, using standard procedure, of the lava dome in Mt. St. Helens, Washington, USA, which erupted about 16 years ago, and sent them to the standard labs, and the samples have come back with dates of 250,000 to 1 million years for a known 16-year-old bit of rock ... makes ya wonder ... Again, my primary problem with the various componants of evolutionism is when extrapolation is involved, such as in dating methods. Even interpolation is risky, but extrapolation - and extrapolation to the degree that is commonly done in evolution - is IMO just unconscionable to use for dating without also giving a LARGE footnote saying how inaccurate it might be.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-22-2004, 06:16 PM | #946 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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A hammer is a useful tool but it makes a lousy screwdriver.
If one suspects a sample to be very young one doesn't use uranium dating. Just yesterday I was watching a documentary on the search for a large volcanic eruption from 600 AD. The search was for carbon that might have been cuaght in the ash. Why? Uranium doesn't provide precision measured in centuries. It does however provide accuracy in miillions of years. All the test prove, if they were even conducted properly and with redundant samples, is that it is pointless to test very young rocks by the uranium method. This is linear extrapolation to zero on a logrithmic scale, something I know you just hate.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
03-22-2004, 06:34 PM | #947 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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One would hope that a bit of rock could be sampled and sent to a lab and dated, WITHOUT any pre-judging of the age. But NO, that's only the way CREATIONISTS work - the EVOLUTIONISTS apparently decide AHEAD OF TIME approx. how old the rock is, then send it to be tested the way that will yield the results consistent with their pre-determined worldview. IOW, if they think it's an older sample, they won't use uranium. But note - they PREJUDGED how old they thought it was and based on this OPINION, sent it to a certain lab to be tested a certain way. And btw, I didn't say the Mt. St. Helens sample was dated by uranium - and it shouldn't matter - it's pretty silly to say "If you think your rock is between X and Y years old, then please date it with XY method, so it will YIELD a date that fits in with your preassumed age! But if you think your rock is between A and B years old, then please date it with AB method, so it will YIELD a date that fits in with your preassumed age!" Don't you see something odd (and definitely unscientific) there?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-22-2004 at 06:39 PM. |
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03-22-2004, 07:19 PM | #948 |
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No! I see logic. I'm sure there were obvious logical reasons to use certain types of dating. Scientists don't work in a haphazard manner! I don't know the facts about this, but I'm sure Cirdan will fill us in.
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03-22-2004, 07:28 PM | #949 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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The age of most rock formations were actually determined before the use of field techniques, stratigraphy, possible rates of deposition, etc. long before radiometric dating was used. Confirming techniques is one of the requirements of scientific method. To continue the analogy of the hammer and the screwdriver, one uses a hammer when one is confronting an obvious nail. An objective observer would evaluate the entire site from which the sample was taken and note all the data associated with the site. Taking a blind sample that may be fresh volcanic material or might just be included clastics from the pre-existing eruption deposits mixed in (xenoclasts) during the more recent eruption is not scientific and is not how field geology is practiced. The bottom line is that dating techiques of all types should be employed for cross-verification.
You found a rock that someone may or may not have misdated. Universities, museums, and mining and oil and gas professionals can provide you with millions of samples that confirm that dating techniques are reasonably accurate and precise when used properly.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 03-22-2004 at 09:08 PM. |
03-22-2004, 07:42 PM | #950 |
the Shrike
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You can't go in blindly dating a bit of rock with any old chronometric/relative dating method, because not all dating methods are suitable. They all have different half-life ranges, and not all are suited to inorganic material. Pretty obvious stuff. ::shrug::
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03-22-2004, 08:19 PM | #951 |
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Principles of Radiometric Dating
Naturally-occurring radioactive materials break down into other materials at known rates. This is known as radioactive decay. Radioactive parent elements decay to stable daughter elements. Radioactivity was discovered in 1896 by Henri Becquerel. In 1905, Rutherford and Boltwood used the principle of radioactive decay to measure the age of rocks and minerals (using Uranium decaying to produce Helium. In 1907, Boltwood dated a sample of urnanite based on uranium/lead ratios. Amazingly, this was all done before isotopes were known, and before the decay rates were known accurately. The invention of the MASS SPECTROMETER after World War I (post-1918) led to the discovery of more than 200 isotopes. Many radioactive elemtns can be used as geologic clocks. Each radioactive element decays at its own nearly constant rate. Once this rate is known, geologists can estimate the length of time over which decay has been occurring by measuring the amount of radioactive parent element and the amount of stable daughter elements. Examples:
In the above table, note that the number is the mass number (the total number of protons plus neutrons). Note that the mass number may vary for an element, because of a differing number of neutrons. Elements with various numbers of neutrons are called isotopes of that element. Each radioactive isotope has its own unique half-life. A half-life is the time it takes for half of the parent radioactive element to decay to a daughter product. Examples:
Radioactive decay occurrs at a constant exponential or geometric rate. The rate of decay is proportional to the number of parent atoms present. The proportion of parent to daughter tells us the number of half-lives, which we can use to find the age in years. For example, if there are equal amounts of parent and daughter, then one half-life has passed. If there is three times as much daughter as parent, then two half-lives have passed. (see graph, above) Radioactive decay occurs by releasing particles and energy. Uranium decays producing subatomic particles, energy, and lead.
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03-22-2004, 08:21 PM | #952 |
the Shrike
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Radiometric dating part two:
As uranium-238 decays to lead, there are 13 intermediate radioactive daughter products formed (including radon, polonium, and other isotopes of uranium), and 8 alpha particles and 6 beta particles released. There are three types of subatomic particles involved:
Minerals you can date: Most minerals which contain radioactive isotopes are in igneous rocks. The dates they give indicate the time the magma cooled.
Note that some elements have both radioactive and non-radioactive isotopes. Examples: carbon, potassium. As seen in the tables above, there are three isotopes of uranium. Of these, U-238 is by far the most abundant (99.2739%). Radioactive elements tend to become concentrated in the residual melt that forms during the crystallization of igneous rocks. More common in SIALIC rocks (granite, granite pegmatite) and continental crust. Radioactive isotopes don't tell much about the age of sedimentary rocks (or fossils). The radioactive minerals in sedimentary rocks are derived from the weathering of igneous rocks. If the sedimentary rock were dated, the age date would be the time of cooling of the magma that formed the igneous rock. The date would not tell anything about when the sedimentary rock formed. To date a sedimentary rock, it is necessary to isolate a few unusual minerals (if present) which formed on the seafloor as the rock was cemented. Glauconite is a good example. Glauconite contains potassium, so it can be dated using the potassium-argon technique.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 03-22-2004 at 08:57 PM. |
03-22-2004, 08:22 PM | #953 |
the Shrike
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Radiometric dating part three:
How does Carbon-14 dating work?
Fission Track Dating: Charged particles from radioactive decay pass through mineral's crystal lattice and leave trails of damage called FISSION TRACKS. These trails are due to the spontaneous fission of uranium.
Reheating "anneals" or heals the tracks. The number of tracks per unit area is a function of age and uranium concentration.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 03-22-2004 at 08:58 PM. |
03-22-2004, 08:56 PM | #954 |
the Shrike
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and now for something completely different!... relative dating methods! :)
Superposition -- It's a Law : One of the most fundamental principles of archaeology is the Law of Superposition. The law states that strata that are younger will be deposited on top of strata that are older, given normal conditions of deposition. This law is the guiding principle of stratigraphy, or the study of geological or soil layers. Stratigraphy is still the single best method that archaeologists have for determining the relative ages of archaeological materials.
Geologic Time: Relative Time Scale : James Hutton and William Smith advanced the concept of geologic time and strengthened the belief in an ancient world. Hutton, a Scottish geologist, first proposed formally the fundamental principle used to classify rocks according to their relative ages. He concluded, after studying rocks at many outcrops, that each layer represented a specific interval of geologic time. Further, he proposed that wherever uncontorted layers were exposed, the bottom layer was deposited first and was, therefore, the oldest layer exposed; each succeeding layer, up to the topmost one, was progressively younger. The Major Divisions of Geologic Time are shown here, arranged in chronological order with the oldest division at the bottom, the youngest at the top. Stratigraphy:
Dendrochronology:
Ice Cores
Varves(link)
Pollens(link)
Corals
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03-22-2004, 08:58 PM | #955 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-22-2004, 09:02 PM | #956 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-22-2004, 09:04 PM | #957 | |
the Shrike
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03-22-2004, 09:10 PM | #958 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And that doesn't ring any alarm bells with you? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-22-2004, 09:19 PM | #959 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Re: Radiometric dating part three:
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And THAT is how it SHOULD be. Don't you guys agree? A scientist that has a valid degree from a recognized university should be able to present a scientific experiment to his/her peers for analysis. Yet it was amazing that they even got in the door, because evolution scientists hold the reins in so many fields Let scientific results stand or fall on their own merits, no matter if they go against popular BELIEFS or not. Don't you guys think that's the way it should be? It's NOT, all too often, sadly. And this stifles the growth of knowledge
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-22-2004, 09:25 PM | #960 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Re: and now for something completely different!... relative dating methods! :)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-22-2004 at 09:27 PM. |
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