11-04-2003, 06:28 PM | #81 | |
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11-04-2003, 06:36 PM | #82 | |
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11-05-2003, 02:12 AM | #83 | |
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I've thought some more on the slavery issue, but it's too late to post any more tonight. I'll add another angle to the discussion on the subject, tho, that I think is a good thing to consider - when a slave is freed, how should it be done? I don't mean legally, I mean should there be some type of training, for lack of a better word, to help him/her adjust to life as a non-slave? It seems like a lot of problems arose when slaves, who knew no other lifestyle, were suddenly set free then left on their own. Thoughts?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-05-2003, 02:15 AM | #84 | |
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I think you're just being a stinker on purpose here It's obvious that I'm right for the particular analogy that I gave - if the truth is that my son cleaned up, then even if I think my hubby did, the truth REMAINS that my son did. Now please be a nice elf and admit it, or I'll start to cry and I'll never give you my cell phone number, either!) I respect your belief that there is no God and believe that you arrived at that belief sincerely and with a lot of thought. Do you respect my belief that there IS a God and believe that I arrived at that belief sincerely and with a lot of thought?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-05-2003 at 02:18 AM. |
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11-05-2003, 02:36 PM | #85 | |
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11-05-2003, 06:05 PM | #86 |
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That's a good start
But really, think of how much of being a good citizen in a free society is learning by example and learning by teaching. IOW, even if a particular slave is kind, honest, intelligent, etc., there are still SKILLS that he/she may not have had to develop, and if they're just thrown out into society with their freedom but with no help, the lack of skills may cause them to fail. Any other thoughts?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-05-2003, 11:36 PM | #87 | |
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Mel Brooks is exactly the example that came to my mind, and what I told him.
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11-06-2003, 12:14 AM | #88 | |
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What slaves, where? Are we still talking about biblical slaves I think it is too late to free those.
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11-06-2003, 02:10 AM | #89 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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As for what should be done when someone is freed from slavery - talking about American slavery in the 1800's - they should have been given an education and brought into society. The problem is - even the people who were against slavery - still thought blacks were lower than whites. it wasn't until the 1960's that desegration happened and that blacks had full rights as US citizens. it took almost a hundred years from the Civil War to the Civil Rights movement. After the Civil War there had been the suggestion to round up all blacks and ship them back to Africa too. Should that have happened?
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11-06-2003, 01:13 PM | #90 | ||
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Actually, JD seemed to get what I was trying to say, and proposed some good ideas. That's the kind of thing I meant. I was thinking of American slavery in particular, because that's what I know the most about. I'll post more of my thoughts later, when my party is over ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-06-2003, 06:38 PM | #91 | |||
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Actually, I have never said that. People make mistakes, they trust what they are told is truth, and usually without question. I do not call someone who is mistaken a liar. That would not be fair. Quote:
However, when slaves were freed, the owner should have provided something to start them out with. And the government should have provided for their equal education, right from the start. It took too long for African-Americans to obtain their equality in the world (I'm not just talking about the US). As I suspect the Jews who were freed from Egypt were not looked upon as equals where they traveled afterwards. Quote:
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11-06-2003, 06:42 PM | #92 |
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A formal education was a rare thing even for a white person in the mid-1800's. Especially in the frontier areas.
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11-07-2003, 12:49 AM | #93 | |
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--Dave
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11-07-2003, 12:56 AM | #94 | |
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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11-07-2003, 02:05 AM | #95 |
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Aye. I know what your saying. But that kind of thinking, voluntary (and there is evidence of coercion) or otherwise demonstrates very well the predominate attitudes of the time. Many may have thought that to own a human being was wrong, but at the same time they didn’t think these ex-slaves were Americans. Americans pride themselves on their social liberties and human rights, but it doesn’t hurt for us to reflect on the fact that these same social liberties and human rights were denied to whole classes of people not very long ago (only 40 or so years ago, in fact)... and in some cases they are still being denied to some people.
--Dave
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11-07-2003, 02:25 AM | #96 |
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It's late, and I'm tired, so I might not get my thoughts across well, but here's what I meant, HOBBIT -
I read something once along the lines of (roughly) "the trouble with being a slave is that when you've been forced by others to do things for so long, when you're finally free, you can lose the power to force yourself." I saw this on a small scale when I went to college away from home. No one to force me to go to class! I ditched quite a bit The consequences were, of course, grades that were lower than I should have been earning. Now I can just imagine that a person, born and bred as a slave, after years of equating hard work with absolutely no benefit for himself, suddenly freed - and having trouble finding work, and knowing how to plan and save and build, and even (for some) just wanting to not work at all. The consequences would be really tragic. I'm sure there were many freed slaves who just dove into work with the joy of being free, but there must have been many more who were just dulled by years of abuse - what happened to them? I really don't know what should have been done. I would hope that some former slaveowners DID help out their former slaves, but I imagine not too many did. I raise my kids to realize how effort is tied to success, and how it is noble to work hard and well (and then work hard at fun, after the work is done!), and how to save up their allowance for big purchases, and things like that. We just started an allowance for the two youngest, and we'll get them a special bank like we did for the oldest - 1 section for savings (10%), 1 section for charity/church (10%), and the rest for whatever they want to do (80%). I imagine just the money-management end of things would be hard for freed slaves, and I imagine many were taken in by con artists. Just some thoughts I was thinking ... actually, somewhat of a similar situation in Iraq ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-07-2003, 02:29 AM | #97 |
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I know what you mean, just wanted to know what slaves you were talking about..........
You defenitely saw that in African-American slaves being released... When they were slaves, they had food and shelter - but when released no one would hire them. They had no money, no education, little food, poor shelter......... There was still that slave mentality. People didn't want to have anything to do with them. I was just confused as to how this relates to biblical slavery, but oh well.
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11-07-2003, 02:37 AM | #98 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Actually, I was trying to bring up a non-Biblical aspect of slavery on purpose, as some people have been unhappy about some of my posts recently. But YOU still like me, don't you, Hobbit? I'll try to behave myself. For awhile
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-07-2003, 01:16 PM | #99 | |
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11-07-2003, 04:01 PM | #100 | |
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Monarchy and Slavery
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Slavery and the monarchial system of governance (including the various systems of economics and jurisprudence connected to monarchy) are two distinct realities, and by mingling them together runs the risk of watering down the terminology, and unfairly condemning monarchy. Slavery is involuntary servitude whereby one person is owned as chattel by another, in the same way a person would own an inanimate object. It is the complete subjection of one person to another. Slavery does not involve a contract between the person owning and the person owned, and does not necessitate the observance of civil or human rights beyond what is defined by the will of the owner in accordance with established civil laws. In other words, the slave was equivalent to a piece of land that is used according to the will of the landholder and in accordance with existing zoning laws. While the good of the land or the slave may benefit the owner, that “good” is determined by the owner, not the owned. While a monarchy presupposes a hierarchy of governance, it does not by its nature claim ownership of subjects under the definition of slavery. Monarchy depends significantly upon mutual support and contract. For example, medieval vassalage was a contract, both in material aid, and familial loyalty and affection. Both material aid and loyalty/affection were reciprocated between subject and suzerain. Medieval history points out that no suzerain could consolidate power without this mutual support and reciprocation between himself and his subjects. Thus a viable monarchy must be limited by this reciprocation in the practice of affording privileges and advantages as defined, not by the monarch, but by existing social mores (civil rights to use modern terminology), and the monarchy could even be forced to afford these privileges and advantages, which was the case with Magna Carta. Medieval monarchy was not without its checks and balances. Thus, monarchy as a method of governance can not by any stretch of the imagination be considered in the same way as owning slaves. Monarchy is a perfectly viable form of governance (and the manorial system a perfectly viable form of social and economic life), and has the potential, if properly applied to given social mores and economic factors, to be just as, if not more, humane than democracy (and self-interested capitalism). --Dave
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