08-12-2003, 01:42 AM | #1941 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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hi guys - I got the "blaster" computer worm and have been unable to get on all day and will prob. be logged off any second - I'm leaving on vacation, like I said, and will be back in a week if I can get the computer de-wormed!!
Thanks for your post, GM, and I had a nice response typed out but got logged off I'll try to reconstruct it when I get back.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-12-2003, 06:23 AM | #1942 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Katt, I hate to break it to you, but GM is a he, not a she.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
08-12-2003, 10:48 AM | #1943 | ||
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I needed your answer because if you had responded as Katt it'd have been useless to try to explain how i understand our freedom. IMO, freedom doesn't consist in the power to choose between different possibilities. Freedom is the power to choose in which way do you want to perfect your life. I think that my decisions can make me more or less perfect (you can agree or not with what i believe is "perfection", but that's another point...). I don't think all my choices have made me be a better person, and that's were i discover that i'm free to make of my life a better thing or not. In your question about Quote:
But i also think that what is really important is the attitude with which she'll take that suffering. She may become desperate because she cannot understand it. Or perhaps she may try and fight against her disease at least to help her husband and children while she still can. Or perhaps, she can help to advice other men/women of her town about the dangers of AIDS... None of those (or other possible) options will avoid the suffering, but only some of them will make her a better person and therefore a happier person. Yes, freedom is what allows us to discover that suffering and happiness are not incompatible.
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08-20-2003, 01:38 AM | #1944 |
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A quick side note on the question of "suffering", especially of the innocents:
Firstly, I would like to cite Paul, who said, "All have fallen short of the glory of God" and "There is none righteous, no, not one." In other words, from the Christian perspective (and of course the "attack" if you will is against Christianity and the Christian God) there are no truly innocent people. Secondly, I would like to remind those concerned of numerous places in the Bible, especially the Beatitudes and the parable of Lazarus in the rich man. In many places throughout (these are the only ones I can remember), it is made very clear that those who suffer in this life will be blessed in the next. According to the Jerusalem Bible, "How happy are the pure in spirit; theirs is the kingdom of heaven...Happy those who mourn: they shall be comforted. Happy those who hunger and thirst for what is right: they shall be satisfied...Happy those who are persecuted in the cause of right: theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Suffering in one world is a chance to "cash in", to reduce the Christian religion to a purely gain-centric theme, on the wealth of the next. Truly, what is a little hunger in comparison with eternal fullfilment; what is sorrow next to eternal joy; what is pain and illness next to eternally divine health? The above is meant to represent a Christian view; naturally, I do not expect non-Christians to agree with me (though it would be nice ); and I readily invite any other Christians to make changes, additions, etc. Unfortunately, I won't be able to keep up on this discussion, but I will try to drop in once in a while.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
08-20-2003, 01:46 AM | #1945 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-20-2003, 01:51 AM | #1946 |
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(Still on! )
Not necessarily, I don't think. I believe that AIDS is far, far, far worse in Africa, and it's much more likely that someone will have it, whether they promiscuize (is that a word? ) or not. AIDS can of course be transmitted a number of ways; I think I remember someone once saying that about half of the people in parts of Africa could be visibly seen to suffer from the ravages of the disease. Americans fear it; it's an epidemic in Africa.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
08-20-2003, 03:03 AM | #1947 |
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While I think a lot of AIDS in Africa comes from unsterilized needles etc., a lot still does come from promiscuity.
It's apparently a fairly wide-spread custom that a widow must sleep with another man soon after her husband's funeral to prevent his ghost from coming back- an almost perfect set-up for increasing transmission.
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08-20-2003, 03:24 AM | #1948 | ||
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In eastern religions the idea of karma and rebirth play the same role, i.e. to explain why it is that in this world the wicked flourish and the righteous suffer, and to hold out hope for justice in the future. From a non-believer's perspective, that's of course exactly why they were thought up. Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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08-20-2003, 05:09 AM | #1949 | |||
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Eternal life is not only something that make us Quote:
it is not a prize for all the suffering of life. It is the natural ending for the love of your life: it is the plenitude of love. So, for understanding human suffering, I don't think we need to speak of the promised glory. It is enough to say that suffering, born for love, brings joy in this life. That is the way that Jesus taught us in his Passion.
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08-21-2003, 01:47 AM | #1950 | |
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I really, really like that, Fat middle. Gwai - I don't quite agree with what you said, but I imagine it's due to your short posting time - I think we're pretty like-minded. GrayM and Gwai - yes, of course I realize that promiscuity isn't the only means of transmission - I almost typed in "unless he had been faithful and got AIDS from a blood transfusion", but then I realized that it's just freedom moved another level back - IOW, the freedom to choose promiscuity, which is against God's loving ideal for us, is a huge factor in the spread of AIDS, and makes it possible for people to get it even in morally innocent ways. And whether we like it or not, our choices affect others, even innocents. I just threw in the final wash load from our camping trip (Oy! those socks were filthy!) - I don't feel like thinking deeply tonight, so I'll put off answering the other posts until tomorrow or the next day.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-22-2003, 09:38 PM | #1951 |
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I'm sorry I'm letting this thread droop a bit, guys, when I promised I'd talk about the subject. My surgery is a week from today, and this, combined with the heat of summer, just leaves me not wanting to do much of anything ....
Let me get a cold drink and get going again ... *ahhhh!* OK - Now I imagine GrayMouser has an idea of how I'm going to address this topic (right, GM? ) because he knows the books I have read and like, esp. The Problem of Pain by C. S. Lewis. Yes, I'm going to bring up some of those points, but I'm also going to bring up some other things. This particular topic is not quite as much a doctrinal issue as the subject of hell was - there are some unknown areas here - but I think that I can bring up some things that will help to deal with the question, and I think that Christianity has the best answer to the question, altho it is certainly a complex answer, because the question is complex. So I'd kinda like to bring in several sub-topics and let them all simmer together...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-22-2003, 09:55 PM | #1952 |
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One of them is actually a response that I wanted to give to Millane's question awhile back, and it deals with our basic character makeup.
(and as usual when starting a new topic, I'll state that I'm talking about internal logic/consistency in Christianity - whether or not you believe in God is a different issue. The basic question is: "how can a God who is all-powerful and all-good allow suffering in the world?", is that all right with everyone?) (and note #2 - I'll be discussing this in a formal manner, in order to be as clear as possible, but believe me, I hate to see suffering!) One of the things that Millane brought up was something like what's so wrong with pornography and drugs and alcohol and things like that? And what was so interesting about that list is that these are all addictive things. You need more and more to get the same buzz, and they are all very hard to stop doing. (edit - I should add that drinking alcohol in moderation is perfectly fine, acc'd to the Bible, and I very much enjoy a glass of wine several times a week, but getting drunk is what is a "don't".) The reason why that interested me was that Millane was talking about freedom, and how he thought that Christianity was very limiting to freedom. However, the things he wanted to be free to engage in are .... addicting!. IOW, they take away your freedom as you get further and further into them. Christianity, IMO, and from my personal experience, DOES have some "don't do's", but they are for our GOOD. I don't consider "don'ts" to be limiting to freedom if it is for the good of the people involved, or if it keeps you away from an addicting behavior that will take away your freedom. See, the interesting thing is that (and many of you WON'T like this!) we are created beings. And that means that there is a creator that has authority over us. Now luckily for us, the creator is good and wishes only the best for us. But there is no getting away from the fact that, acc'd to the Bible, we are created beings. And something will be master over us - the Bible says that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness - no other choice. I know what I would rather be And our freedom lies in the fact that we can CHOOSE what will be master over us - either God or sin-marred self. If we choose God, we find true freedom and joy, because we are in harmony with our created nature and design. If we choose self, we end up being in slavery to our sin natures. whoops- gotta go now, kid emergency - I might try to reword the last paragraph, because it didn't come out exactly like I intended, but comments are welcome so far....
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 08-24-2003 at 12:26 AM. |
08-23-2003, 09:56 AM | #1953 | |
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As long as I have correct information as to the consequences of my acts, any prohibition on my actions is a limit on my freedom. "True Freedom is obeying the Rules" ?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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08-23-2003, 11:03 AM | #1954 | |
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Freedom is not a simple capacity of choosing between different options. Freedom is the capacity of human beings to better their own persons by the use of their will. The choosing between different alternatives is only a consequence of that. Clearer now?
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08-23-2003, 01:23 PM | #1955 | ||||||
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Another thing I would like to say is that while it is most surely true that sin is detrimental to us, I think that the most important thing to state is that, from the Christian view, it is unhealthy for one's soul (or spirit, depending on which you prefer ). Sin is a cancer, which causes our spirits to sicken, and damages our relationship with God. If left unattended, it could in the end prove to be a fatal cancer. I feel like there's much more that I want to say, but alas! I am feeling rather illiterate in the English language tonight, and I don't really have the time to sort out my thoughts, so I must bid you "a Dieu".
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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08-23-2003, 02:22 PM | #1956 | ||
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08-24-2003, 12:24 AM | #1957 |
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Whoops - thanks for pointing that out, Gwai- I'll edit the post. The way Millane was asking it, I just assumed excess alcoholic drinking.
I have no problem at all drinking wine! In fact, I just put a new bottle of White Zinfindel in the fridge 10 minutes ago - we polished off the old one last night The only thing in the Bible that is a "don't" is becoming drunk (esp. in a habitual manner).
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-24-2003, 05:36 AM | #1958 | |
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Even if you restrict it to "moral freedom" or some such, the essence of the term is still the choice. Surely the capacity of human beings to better their own persons must also include the capacity of humans to worsen their own positions? What you refer to as "only a consequence" is actually the definition.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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08-24-2003, 02:40 PM | #1959 | ||
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The simple capacity of choosing is a very poor thing. Freedom is a much higher capacity of men. Quote:
For example, if you beging having drugs, it will come the time when you're not able to stop having. That's because your choices have made you less free. But as you see, the capacity of making choices is only the consequence of the decision to be or not a better person.
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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08-24-2003, 10:58 PM | #1960 | |
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