07-02-2003, 01:57 AM | #1241 |
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Well the moths were never used to show "evolution" it was used to show natural selection - which is a PIECE of evolution. I had seen the pictures of the moths on trees - that doesn't mean anything. The example that we were given was the height of the industrial age. Whereas before the industrial age - the white moths would survive and the black mosts would be eaten my predators - during the industrial age this was reversed. During the Industrial age - buildings, trees, everything was covered in a thick black dust. This was especially true in London. White moths now showed up against the black soot and were now eaten by predators and the black moths now blended in with their surroundings.
Rian's argument about moths or anything else so far does not disprove or even put a wrench in the theory of evolution.
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07-02-2003, 02:08 AM | #1242 |
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I'm too tired tonite to go any further, but disproving evolution was NOT my point, JD.
I'll see you guys tomorrow
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-02-2003, 02:32 AM | #1243 |
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Hobbit - I'm heading off to bed now, so I'll post some links/refs tomorrow.
I was trying to remember what year I saw the moth pictures. It was definitely in high school, but back in my time, HS was 10th thru 12th. You will prob. see the pics this coming year. JD, did you see the moth pics in a school textbook? If so, what year, if you remember? g'nite!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-02-2003, 11:51 AM | #1244 | |
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07-02-2003, 03:17 PM | #1245 |
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4th grade, huh? Well, schools are different all over the country, aren't they?!
I really can't remember exactly when I heard the moth example, but I remember those pictures vividly. I also remember the embryo drawings vividly - showing how similar embryos for different animals were. Do you remember those? Anyone else remember the moth and/or embryo pictures?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-02-2003, 03:25 PM | #1246 | |
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Edit: Oh, and I'm not sure of this, but aren't the moths nocturnal? Last edited by Sheeana : 07-02-2003 at 03:29 PM. |
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07-02-2003, 03:32 PM | #1247 |
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JD is right. The moths were used as an example to show natural selection. Nat'l Selection is a part of the process for the Theory of Evolution. Evolution is 'change over time'.
My two cents: theory of evolution should be taught in schools. But theory of creation as taught through the christian bible should not, unless you bring the creation stories of ALL religions into the classroom. Our country (USA) has laws that govern a separation of church and state. Unless direct evidence can be provided to prove that the christian god created the universe, this world and all the life within it, it should be eliminated from the science classroom of all . However, it can not be proven. That is the trouble with religions, they are based on faith in the stories. I would be just as upset if any religion's creation story was being taught in a science classroom (that I pay taxes for) as an alternative to the evidence at hand. |
07-02-2003, 03:35 PM | #1248 | |
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07-02-2003, 05:03 PM | #1249 | |
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What I object to is when NS is used to "prove" macro-evolution. At the MOST, NS could be used as a jumping-off point for a logical INFERENCE of macro evolution - it is NOT proof, by any means, since macro-evolution has never been observed.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-02-2003, 05:08 PM | #1250 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-02-2003, 05:10 PM | #1251 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-02-2003, 05:13 PM | #1252 |
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whoops, just re-read your quote, Sheeana - by "adaptation", do you mean natural selection of the individuals with characteristics most favorable to survival in their current environment?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-02-2003, 05:24 PM | #1253 | ||
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All animals, fish and every living creature have a basic framework - unlike a human and a car. You can easily see how we could have evolved from a fish to a walking human if you actually look at it. You can also see how a one cell organism turns into a multi-ceill organism too. We all grow from two distinct cells - an egg and a sperm and grow into a human. During the embryonic stage we are indisinguishable from a fish, chicken, dog or any other animal. This is a result of the DNA that all animals share. I really don't see why you have such a hard time accepting evolution other than the fact it would throw your beliefs into disarray.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 07-02-2003 at 05:26 PM. |
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07-02-2003, 05:47 PM | #1254 | |
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A brief description of flaws/problems with the experiment:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-02-2003 at 05:56 PM. |
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07-02-2003, 06:29 PM | #1255 |
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Here's the refs:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-02-2003, 06:49 PM | #1256 | ||
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07-02-2003, 06:55 PM | #1257 |
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i think the theory of evolution should be taught in schools, since its the best theory we have to offer at this time. i tend to favor this theory more than the others at this point in time, but i do admit there are a lot of holes to be filled.
remember that theories tend to evolve or die in time. take the big bang for instance. at first no one gave that theory a chance, but over time, with the help of hubbel, einstein and hawkings, it has grown into the most plausable explanation for the creation of the universe. even during its evolution, a lot of changes were made to the foundation of the theory. einstein admitted that he was wrong when he stated the universe must be static. hubbel pointed out that the universe was ever expanding and must therefore be dynamic and so on. my vote is yes.
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07-02-2003, 07:07 PM | #1258 |
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And here's a partial list of textbooks with varying degrees of inaccuracies (there are more) :
And the real kicker: A Canadian textbook writer who KNEW the pictures were staged used them anyway. His justification? "You have to look at the audience. How convoluted do you want to make it for a first time learner?" High school students "are still very concrete in the way they learn. The advantage of this example of natural selection is that it is extremely visual. ..... We want to get across the idea of selective adaptation. Later on, they can look at the work critically." (Bob Ritter) - this quotation is from Carla Yu, "Moth-eaten Darwinism: A disproven textbook case of natural selection refuses to die," Alberta Report Newsmagazine Vol. 26, No. 15 (April 5, 1999), pp. 38-39. Well, visual, yes; but containing some major problems that should cause it to be discarded. I don't have any problem with natural selection! But I do have problems with situations like this where scientific integrity has been sacrificed. At the VERY least, keep the experiment but discuss the major problems with it, like the fact that the moths are NIGHT-FLYERS! and DO NOT REST ON TREE TRUNKS!, and caption the pictures something like "A picture of a moth placed on a tree trunk to show how it blends in/stands out. However, moths do not naturally rest on tree trunks." I think that if any experiment by creationists was found to be this flawed, it would have made front-page news immediately and have been immediately thrown out. Wouldn't you guys agree? Why not the same standard?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-02-2003, 07:21 PM | #1259 | ||||
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I tell you again, JD, I honestly think creationism is the best fit for the data. Will you do me the courtesy of believing me? I don't mind if you disagree, but I DO mind the implications of dishonesty (IOW, that I only am supporting creationism because of my Christian beliefs).
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-02-2003 at 07:30 PM. |
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07-02-2003, 07:23 PM | #1260 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Some kinds of moths are nocturnal - but not ALL moths.
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