06-12-2003, 11:57 AM | #1441 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-12-2003, 12:42 PM | #1442 | |
Elf Lord
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Oh, absolutely - (to your last question) and of course the greatest sin is pride. Milton's Satan : "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven" I'm temperamentally inclined the same way myself, and tend to go along with EG; but one of my best friends ( a Fundamentalist missionary) claims that such a position is not possible for those in Hell; that whether I like it or not the True Nature of God is revealed so clearly to the damned (and the Saved, of course) that I would have to absolutely abandon my defiance in realization of the Divine Wisdom . (I mean, of course, not to be forced to abandon it, but just to have the scales of pride drop from my eyes, so that my anger against God would convert to self-loathing.) As for the Lewis idea, part of it is expressed in Perelandra-(Chapter 10): Up till that moment, whenever he thought of Hell, he had pictured the lost souls as being still human; now, as the frightful abyss which parts ghosthood from manhood yawned before him, pity was almost swallowed in horror.... If the remains of Weston were, at such moments, speaking through the lips of the Un-man, then Weston was not now a man at all. The forces which had begun, perhaps years ago, to eat away his humanity had now completed their work. The intoxicated will which had been slowly poisoning the intelligence and the affections had now at last poisoned itself and the whole psychic organism had fallen to pieces. Only a ghost was left- an everlasting unrest, a crumbling, a ruin, an odour of decay. As far as I remember, he goes into it in greater depth in the PoP-.(as well as his, umm, unusual ideas about Adam, but that's for another thread.)
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 06-12-2003 at 12:46 PM. |
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06-12-2003, 01:24 PM | #1443 |
Elf Lord
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I just realized I sort of side-tracked myself.
I agree that the souls in Hell cannot come to a state of true repentance; but I do think that they are in such a state of awareness that they cannot remain defiant- they only exist in a state of despair. Again, I'm not an expert in Hadeology, but I can't see a situation (in Christian doctrine) where I'm in Hell saying to God "Yeah, I know I was wrong but I'll suffer forever before admitting it ." (Is that a parent's view peeking through?) However, my original point- which I lost track of myself- was not whether or not the Christian doctrine is true, but whether or not it is the best cosmos one can imagine, in terms of combining free will, justice and mercy. The purpose of my analogy was to say that I think the idea of Karma and reincarnation, as the Buddhists believe, is more just and merciful than the Christian idea of ETERNAL damnation. So, even if the Christian Heaven and Hell do exist, God could have created a universe more in tune with (my, admittedly, human, limited ideas of ) Good. (Not that I believe in either)
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 06-12-2003 at 01:32 PM. |
06-12-2003, 02:28 PM | #1444 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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I agree with GreyMouser, that the karma, reincarnation system is more just. It also happens to be a bit of what I believe. Sort of. But that's because, having studied (thanks in part to Rian!) my various options, that seems to be the best. I can believe in whatever I want, ne? So I pick the most just, the one I like best. Sort of. (I notice I keep saying that...)
I was going to post that bit from Milton! Gah, ya beat me to it, GreyMouser! Anyway, there's another bit on the "less free" stuff I was talking about before--even your personality and individuality is stripped from you in Hell, because, according to Christine doctrine as I understand it, once in Hell you realise your mistake and thus cannot even have your defiance. You just become one of the masses of people who were wrong and must spend eternity mulling over this. Or something like--I just woke up, so anything incredibly stupid that I say should be excused So: less freedom in choice, and no individuality once dead. That is what I mean by having less freedom.
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06-12-2003, 03:15 PM | #1445 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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But it is only an opinion on both sides in this area. God has not revealed every last detail about Hell to us; our limited brains couldn't take it all in, anyway! Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-12-2003, 03:25 PM | #1446 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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RÃ*an, are your beliefs similar to those of C.S. Lewis? I was curious because you quote him alot! I've never read any of his books other than the Chronicles of Narnia, although I would like to
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06-12-2003, 03:28 PM | #1447 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Can you see something like "Yeah, I know I was wrong, but I still will refuse to willingly and joyfully subject myself to You in a proper creation/creator relationship." ? (not that anyone would ever use such an awkwardly worded phrase, but can you see the idea behind it?) Quote:
Now nirvana is to be released from the cycle of suffering - but released to ... what? There is no god outside of ourselves. Frankly, nirvana seems rather ... boring to me (no offense intended to Buddhists!) compared to the strong joys of heaven. And following the Eightfold Path is in our own strength - what makes us think we can ever reach perfection on our own resources, when we see ourselves failing time after time? Now Christians cannot be saved by their own efforts, but after salvation, there is plenty of good work to do with our own effort, and those that "run the race" well are rightly praised and commended.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-12-2003, 03:31 PM | #1448 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'd recommend Mere Christianity and The Problem of Pain for starters, if you'd like to read more of his works.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-12-2003, 03:34 PM | #1449 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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06-12-2003, 03:46 PM | #1450 |
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sure, then there is absolute truth. as in there has to be some explanation for everything, something is right.
and there has to be anyway, if i said that there was no absolute truth, then it would be absolutely true that absolute truth was false and therefore absolute truth would be true absolutely :P
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
06-12-2003, 05:03 PM | #1451 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And I should have said it a little stronger - I agree with him in all of his doctrinal positions that I know about. Some of his speculation (which he freely admits is speculation) I have some disagreements with, but so minor that I can't even think of any off the top of my head. I've thoroughly enjoyed all of his books (except That Hideous Strength, which I thought was just unnecessarily gory) and have read them all several times. I've even ordered some from the publisher that were not in bookstores anymore. One of his lesser-known works, Till We Have Faces, took me 20 years to understand - and now it's incredibly meaningful to me and expresses some very deep truths. It's a wild ride of a book - but very deep and thought-provoking. It's a re-telling of the story of Psyche and Cupid.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-12-2003, 05:08 PM | #1452 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-12-2003, 05:24 PM | #1453 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OK, Hobbit, I just spend 10 minutes reading and re-reading your 2 posts, and I'm not sure where to start. I guess I'll start here:
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So what is your objection, exactly? When you mention "arrogance" in the people that think their beliefs are right, what, exactly, are you objecting to? They obviously believe the same thing you do, that there DOES exist absolute truth, and they feel, for various personal reasons (and puh-LEEZ don't say it's only a warm, fuzzy feeling! Maybe for some people, but not for me or most other Christians I know) that their beliefs are true. Therefore, other beliefs are NOT true, according to what you've said about absolute truth. Is is an attitude you're objecting to, or the logic? I think that Christianity is true; do you find me to be arrogant? I certainly don't think I'm superior to other people because I'm a Christian.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-12-2003 at 05:26 PM. |
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06-12-2003, 08:17 PM | #1454 | |
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I see you haven't gotten to my question yet. PM me when you do. I probably will not have the time to check the "Christian Back-Patting" thread much(LOL, just kidding). |
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06-12-2003, 08:24 PM | #1455 | |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
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And maybe i was not refering to you specifically - glad to hear that you don't think that you are superior. Others do. You think that your religion above all is superior - maybe you don't think that you yourself are superior to others, but i'm assuming that you view christianity as the best religion since you seem to be really into it. Maybe YOU specifically are not arrogant, but many are and this is my objection you see. Take an example of the Middle East - the Arabs(Muslims) there view their religion to be superior hate the Jews and encourage hatred and homicide bombings - the Jews also really hate the Muslims. Well, maybe bad example? Because the violence there goes far beyond just religious fighting. There are also many clashes between Protestants and Catholics all over. My point is just that most people of all religions view their way of thinking to be superior to all others - the right way - and that all other ways are definitely wrong. Not from you rian, but on this board I have gotten from many people (christians) that my beliefs were wrong, I was going to hell, they were going to pray for me, god and jesus still loved me, blah dee blah da blah :P Of course they never thought for a second that THEY might be wrong. I am different because I do not see my way of thinking as the ultimate way of thinking. No one else has to experience what I experience and I value them just the same. Sure I believe what I think is right, but I do not think that it is absolutely right. I am open to the idea that I may be wrong - who knows who is right, if anyone? I may be wrong, but it seems to me that many people of the major religious faiths don't even really consider that they may be wrong. I also do not try to convert anyone to my beliefs. My beliefs are not superior to others just because I view them to be right. Who am i to tell someone to change their views? All I ask is that others listen to what I have to say. I have a problem with religions that convert a lot. Like a quote from someone earlier: "and got to teach kids about Christ. 2 little girls in my group were saved and alot more were saved in other groups." What does that mean?? does it mean that you forcibly changed the beliefs of two little girls who have very impressionable minds? I'm not really sure what program you were talking about or what it is about though, but that is the impression that I got. Changing the beliefs forcibly of many Native Americans, African peoples, and various Island people and other natives (sorry for lumping em all together). Their belief systems were perfectly valid. Which branches of Christianity don't go out to try to convert others?
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
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06-12-2003, 08:25 PM | #1456 |
Elven Warrior
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A really good book is The Sunflower by Simon Wiesenthal. Simon Weisenthal, as you may know, is a Holocaust survivor. The book is about part of his time in the concentration camps. Here's what it says on the back of the book:
While imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp, Simon Wiesenthal was taken one day from his work detail to the bedside of a dying member of the SS. Haunted by the crimes in which he had participated, the soldier wanted to confess - and obtain absolution from - a Jew. Faced with the choice between compassion and justice, silence and truth, Wiesenthal said nothing. But even years after the war had ended, he wondered: Had he done the right thing? What would you have done in his place? In this important book, fifty-three distinguished men and women respond to Wiesenthal's question. They are theologians, political leaders, writers, jurists, psychiatrists, human rights activists, HOlocaust survivors, and victoms of attempted genocide in Bosnia, Cambodia, China and Tibet. Their responses, as varied as their experiences in the world, remind us that Wiesenthal's questions are not limited to events of the past. Often surprising and always thought provoking, The Sunflower will challenge you to define your beliefs about justice, compassion, and human responsibility. It is a very interesting book, and I encourage all you - Jews or not - to read it.
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06-12-2003, 08:30 PM | #1457 | |
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06-12-2003, 09:55 PM | #1458 |
Elven Warrior
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Yes it is grim, but what Holocaust books/movies/stories aren't grim? It kinda comes with the territory.
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Chickens at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. Chickens in motion tend to cross the road. |
06-12-2003, 10:10 PM | #1459 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
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If this is a Man...........Where is God?
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*no answers* |
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06-12-2003, 10:18 PM | #1460 |
Elven Warrior
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The 7th grade curriculum for my Hebrew School is all about anti-Semitism and the Holocaust. It is a very complicated part of history. We watched the replica of the trial of David Irving - a Holocaust denier who sued someone (I forget her name) because she wrote in her book that he indeed was a Holocaust denier. He ended up losing a lot of money on that case... It's hard to believe that there are people in the world who deny that the Holocaust happened, when there are survivors telling their stories, and there is all this information, and the locations, and the documents, and urgh it makes me so angry when I hear about these people.
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