03-23-2003, 06:56 PM | #1 |
im quite stupid
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Location: Cockermouth
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The great Patratiotism debate
This is not a direct Iraq thread or really to do with theprotests or even the morals of the war in Iraq. It is to do with the line many UK Mps have been comming out with since the war started which is you have got to get behind the troops otherwise your not patrioric!
Now this has brought up a lot of questions in my mind first off is does it make you un patroiric to disagree with your country? Secondally do the iraqis feel the same dont agree with there leadership but feel they have to get behind there troops. Is this how states like this lears stay in power for so long a kinda under seige pulling together. Last centuary was full of governments doing things that the mass populas would not agree with (i dont believe for one second if most germans knew about the holocorst they would support it)! when is been patrotism turned into blind faith and possiable fear and is there a time when people should offer no support to its solders etc if the cause pains them so much!
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Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot |
03-23-2003, 06:58 PM | #2 | |
im quite stupid
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Re: The great Patratiotism debate
Quote:
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Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot |
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03-23-2003, 09:22 PM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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I just looked up 'patriotism' and found a definition that said it is "love for or devotion to one's country."
Sounds good, I suppose, but I'm not patriotic and never have been. It has always resembled nationalism to me. The idea of being proud of your nation seems to hold the unspoken implication that other nations are not as good. Nations are made up of people, some good, some evil. I don't believe any nation is better or worse than mine, only different. The differences, in my opinion, are worth celebrating! I love French wine, German opera, Indian food, Japanese pottery, English literature, African textiles, etc. Guess I've always felt that 'patriotism' was a dirty word with its hidden message of 'we're the best!' -- no one is best -- only different. I know that the above definition used the words 'love' and 'devotion' -- not 'proud' -- but it seems that most people see patriotism as a way of validating their belief in their own superiority. I find that offensive.
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Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950) Last edited by Hasty Ent : 03-24-2003 at 03:27 AM. |
03-23-2003, 10:04 PM | #4 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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What the...there was a post by Liz here a moment ago, and a reply by me to it!
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
03-23-2003, 10:12 PM | #5 |
The Redneck Elf
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Yes, it is totally possible to be patriotic and still disagree with your country. Support of and devotion to something are different.
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03-23-2003, 11:09 PM | #6 |
protector of orphaned rabbits
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odd gwaimir...
hmm patriotisms definition didn't include anyhting about "having blind faith" or "lets follow the crowd" or "if you don't follow the christian leader (bushy) then your going to hell" that's just the local meaning though. argh, sorry if i make no sense, darn cold medicine
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03-23-2003, 11:17 PM | #7 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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I just read that Gwaimir! I thought I was going batty! My post did dissappear! Also a happy birthday post, and a reply to Coney on Happy thread. Whoops! Whatever!
Nevermind! A glitch has occured. My post was on the "simple" side anyway!
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 03-23-2003 at 11:25 PM. |
03-23-2003, 11:26 PM | #8 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
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Quote:
Is the moot under attack? Has one of the mods gone mad? Have I been sober too long? Or is it all just a dream within' a dream within a computer program? Yup, I've been sober too long... |
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03-23-2003, 11:48 PM | #9 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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03-24-2003, 12:07 AM | #10 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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I really, really like you!
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! |
03-24-2003, 12:16 AM | #11 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Awwww! And cass said she loved me a while back! What would I do without the Moot?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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03-24-2003, 12:53 AM | #12 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Lizra - here is your original post if you want to post it in...
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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03-24-2003, 01:07 AM | #13 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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JD is such a helpful fellow.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
03-24-2003, 01:22 AM | #14 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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My thoughts exactly.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
03-24-2003, 01:54 AM | #15 |
Fowl Administrator
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I'd go as far as to say that support for the troops as human beings was one of the primary reasons people opposed Vietnam.
If you love your country, you should do it out of what the country is - in the case of the United States, perhaps its liberal democratic ideals, perhaps. And if you value that democracy, you value the fundamental right to question the actions of the government. There is a distinct separation between devotion to the nation and devotion to the state. You can't push for unanimous devotion to the state when that wasn't even nearly the case in your last election. Support for one's country does not imply support for that country's government or its policies and actions.
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All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien |
03-24-2003, 01:55 AM | #16 |
The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain
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There is nothing wrong with believing that your country is better than any other. Allow me, for the sake of analogy, break it down into regions.
I am from the Northwest. though I was born in California, I spent the majority of my childhood under the shadow of the Cascade mountains, and i wouldn't trade it for any other place in the world. That is not to say that I haven't found other places in the country beautiful as well. The Tetons on a clear autumn day are gorgeous; the Grand Canyon at sunset--breathtaking. JerseyDevil -- well, you know what his opinion about the best place to live in America. As great as all these places are, I'll always come back to the Northwest, because it's home. so, even if governments and political ideologies weren't anykind of factor, I wouldn't want to live permanently (I've nothing against temporarily living somewhere else) in any country other than America. It's home. I can't help but think it's the greatest.
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03-24-2003, 02:00 AM | #17 |
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Yes, but sometimes people forget to draw the line between national pride and overwhelming national dedication. Remember, a sense of "our country is the best" superiority was one of the primary causes for the rise (and election) of fascist leaders.
In this continually globalizing world, I would say nationalism and patriotism are really becoming things of the past. It's one thing to think of one's own culture as really great, but there are limits to this. Certainly, crickhollow, the approach you take to it - the personal feeling that there's no place like home - is totally legitimate and harmless. But a lot of people extend the concept of patriotism leaps and bounds beyond that, and that's when it becomes dangerous.
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All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien |
03-24-2003, 02:08 AM | #18 |
The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain
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agreed.
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03-24-2003, 07:12 AM | #19 |
The Dude
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i think that Patriotism nowadays is fine and nationalism is also fine... Turn of the century and nationalism meant war and imperialism... despite current war we have definately learned from mistakes made in the past and countries are no longer thinking of the dream to have an empire where the sun never sets... Patriotism today as i see it is mainly sports driven, or maybe thats just australia might i add we won the WCC GO AUSSIES!!!!!!!
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03-24-2003, 07:34 AM | #20 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Thanks JD.
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