12-19-2002, 12:40 PM | #81 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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One thing that bothers me about Gullum - for living 99% of his life in a cave and having no contact with people - he knows an AWFUL lot about the history of the Ring. When he explains Saurons motives to Frodo and Sam- it sounds like Gandalf. Might be because I think most of those lines were Gandalf's (just reworked). I have to reread Two Towers - but I never got the impression that Gullum was so well versed in the history of the Ring. I also agree with Gerbil - Quote:
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He knew that if he presented himself as a "diehard, obsessed" LotR fan - the TRUE fans would accept his version more. Also as I've said before - I think, and still do, that the only thing he really got right - was the scenary of Middle Earth. NAZGUL at Osgiliath - I agree with everyone that said that this was weak. It was - first of all he wasn't even shot down - so why didn't he just go after the Ring? They're approach doesn't instill fear in anyone - it takes Frodo to say that "They're hear" for people to realize that the Nazguls had arrived. They instill fear on their arrival and makes Sauron's troops "fanatical" - but that wasn't indicated at all. I see no reason in Jackson's movies where the Nazgul are to be truly feared.
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12-19-2002, 12:44 PM | #82 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Faramir and the detour to Osgiliath
To me, the most common gripe people have with the movie is Faramir's being different from in the books. When I watched the movie for the first time, I felt the same way, and I didn't like the whole detour to Osgiliath thing.
The part where Aragorn falls off the cliff I didn't mind at all, and I thought Arwen was placed in very skillfully. To me, all of the special effects were incredibly well done, and the character development we see with everybody was very well done. Sméagol was great, Eowyn, Gimli, Legolas, etc. were all very well done. The comic things with Gimli I didn't mind either . So now that I've briefly gone over my enjoyement of everything, I'll come back to the primary gripe: Faramir. It is true that he is quite different from in the books. To me, he seems both harder and weaker then the one in the books. Nevertheless, his decision to take them to Osgiliath is pretty reasonable if you take into account that his life is forfeit if he doesn't. It increases the drama of his decision from what it was in the book, just as they increased the drama of everything, such as the Ents' decision not to fight and how close they came to being caught at the Black Gate come to mind immediately. So that in part excuses Faramir, and he did shine through in the end. And he was strong enough not to take the Ring for himself before, in the cave. The detour to Osgiliath ceased entirely to bug me after I started further analyzing the scene in my head, after seeing the movie. In the books, we hear that Sauron thought the Fellowship was all going to Minas Tirith, and that is why he attacks Minas Tirith. This detour to Osgiliath demonstrates much more plainly, and I think in a pretty neat way why he chooses to strike so quickly at Minas Tirith. If the Ring is in Osgiliath, it is very close to Minas Tirith and it is logical that that Sauron would bring forth his strength in attack. That connection to events in the book Return of the King made that whole scenario much more fitting to me. But I do find it a little of a pain that Faramir was less noble than in the books, and this is what I want to see: a big improvement of his character in RoTK. We need to see a reason why
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12-19-2002, 12:57 PM | #83 | |
Elven Warrior
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Re: Faramir and the detour to Osgiliath
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~Celebréiel
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12-19-2002, 02:17 PM | #84 |
Elven Warrior
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I agree with alot that has been said already. I do think that this is much more a departure from the books than the first movie, but in a way that makes the film more coherent. I think Peter Jackson has done a great job of not letting the special effects run
off with the film. And he managed to juggle the 3 different story lines without it being too choppy. Personal highs: - the horses and riding stunts - the Ents - the personification of war seen in the women and children affected by the battle - Frodo being influenced by the power of the ring - Gollum Personal lows: - Gimli's goofiness - Theoden's exorcism - Elves at Helm's Deep (particularly Haldir's death scene) and lack of the Huorns at the end of the Battle - Faramir's depiction None of these negatives will stop my intended multiple viewings of the film, and I am awaiting in anticipation for the inevitable added scenes in the DVD.
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12-19-2002, 02:26 PM | #85 | |
Elf Lord
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We were 'lucky' in as much that since it happened near the end, everyone came out seething. The film was bad enough without people cocking it up. Have to say - the buggering-up rate of playing TTT seems unduly high |
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12-19-2002, 02:34 PM | #86 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
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I didn't mean to be so negative in my past post, but I just wanted to get my main gripes out of the way while they were still fresh in my mind.
I wanted to add that I really liked the coney scene, I'm glad he had that in there. As for Legolas' "skateboarding" episode, I think I would have thought it was really cool if it hadn't been such obvious pandering to the MTV viewership. I mean, if they just hadn't made it as if he were riding on a skateboard. Re Gimli: If PJ had left a lot of the ent stuff in and had kept the Uruk scene at the beginning truer instead of making it so "dark," he would have had enough levity left in that Gimli's comic status would have been unecessary for the most part. I can't believe people said they couldn't wait for it to be over, though! I was like,"What, that's it?" I could have watched it another hour! I do hope they include a lot more in the extended dvd! People in my audience were laughing at Gollum, too. I really don't know that he was intentionally supposed to be funny at all the parts where they laughed. But I do think Jackson was really trying to build up sympathy for an unlikable creature in the very short amount of time he had to do that. Oh, and there were plenty of people in the audience surprised when Treebeard opened his eyes! Hey, what did everyone think of how PJ included the lembas explanation for those who hadn't seen the EE? (With Sam saying that's all they had to eat.) I thought it was good, even though it didn't give an explanation of the properties of it. edit: Oh, sorry I wanted to add one more thing -- I wasn't as impressed with the music in TTT as in FotR, but I did like the Rohan theme. |
12-19-2002, 02:39 PM | #87 |
Elven Warrior
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I loved the film, but some of the characters did have major faults.
I thought that King Theoden was meant to be a kindly old man, not the arrogant git that he was. I didn't like Faramir - he was so horrible! I expected a kider character, not the nasty person that PJ potrayed him as. During Helm Deep, I was shaking my head aso much - the elves shouldn't have been there. I didn't like Haldir's death scene either. I thought that some people laughed in inapropriate places, especially when either Gollum or Gimli were involved. I can't remember much more details about the film, but I loved the ents, Golum and the darker side of Frodo. I'll post more when I remember other stuff.
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12-19-2002, 02:52 PM | #88 |
Long lost mooter
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I actually liked seeing the elves show up at HD. I think it worked for the movie, especially because the movie going public was probably wondering why the elves weren't coming to help. If he had played up the fact that ALL elves were in the process of leaving ME, it wouldn't have worked, but I honestly don't think people got that. I think they thought (from talking to others) that just certain elves were going, and that the elf kingdoms were all staying intact. He didn't have time to highlight the war on other fronts, either, so he wanted to show that the war was affecting everyone, not just men, and that it wasn't just men that were doing the fighting. I thought Haldir's death scene was surprisingly well done, giving me a taste of what might have been if the same thought had gone into other moments in the film. His expression and the camera angle really bring home the fact that this immortal being had laid down his life for the "cause," and how powerful that as he goes down he sees the pile of dead men and orcs, and is aware that he is about to be one of the dead bodies piled there. It was disturbing to me, but in a good way, if you know what I mean. He will not be going over the sea, instead he will cease to exist, for all he knows.
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12-19-2002, 02:53 PM | #89 | |
Elven Warrior
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Ërendil wrote:
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Was there too much comedy? In the case of Gimli, yes. I never got annoyed by Gollum, though, mostly because some of his funny lines came directly from the book (the "taters" exchange with Sam — loved it!), and the rest was more subtle than just another height joke. Last edited by Churl : 12-19-2002 at 02:55 PM. |
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12-19-2002, 02:59 PM | #90 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-19-2002, 03:01 PM | #91 |
Enting
Join Date: Oct 2002
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when the nazgul were on the horses they were cooler. all in all, the movie ROCKED!!!! I loved Eowyn; I was afraid they'd ruin my favorite character but they didn't! Eomer was great too. Though Faramir was kinda not as nice as he was in the book. And were there elven archers at HElm's Deep? I don't remember. Oh well, if we start nit-picking then this thread will reach to the moon and back! lol
Last edited by elvendrummer87 : 12-19-2002 at 03:02 PM. |
12-19-2002, 03:10 PM | #92 | |
Elven Warrior
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elvendrummer87 wrote:
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12-19-2002, 03:38 PM | #93 | |
Slacker
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12-19-2002, 03:56 PM | #94 |
Sapling
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Hello to all. This is my first post anywhere, ever, so if I violate any etiquette rules, let me apologize ahead of time.
Some have mentioned not liking the scene of Frodo's fall into the Dead Marshes. Actually, I thought it was an interesting scene, having Frodo fall into the water and be pulled out by Gollum. It reminded me of the image at the end of FoTR where Frodo pulls Sam out of the river. I don't know if it was Jackson's intent to have the scenes echo each other, to somehow illustrate the strong connection the characters have, but it got my attention. Just a thought. Please keep up the interesting and lively commentary! |
12-19-2002, 04:12 PM | #95 |
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Welcome to Entmoot Gilraen. Be sure to stop by the Welcome thread at the top of the General Messages forum. I hope you enjoy your time here.
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"If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31 |
12-19-2002, 04:41 PM | #96 |
Tea Bag Queen
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Yeah the Dead Marshes were really wierd! They were sort of how I imagined them too!
And the scene when Gimli was talking to Eowyn about Female Dwarfs was very funny!!! Especially when Aragorn says really quitely "It's the beards"!! I was laughing soo much! I found this film more humerous compared to FOTR! I give it 12/10 I loved it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
12-19-2002, 05:00 PM | #97 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
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I only have a few minutes before work so I'll leave my nitpicking for later...
I just saw this film, and I loved it. It really moved the story along, and the new characters were quite compelling. Gollum was unbelievable. I can't even express how impressed I am with Gollum, both the CGI character and the acting. Treebeard and the Ents were fantastic, and the Storming of Isengard was for me the high point of the whole film. Helms Deep was one of the most well-visualized medieval-style battles I have seen on screen. I will go ahead and assert, though, had Jackson stuck to the book more faithfully, he would have produced a better film. I think the storyline Jackson penned for the film meshes well with the prior film and sets up the anticipation for Return of the King. I guess he'll release the trailer tacked on to the end of the film sometime in March.... What a movie.
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12-19-2002, 05:05 PM | #98 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Yup Nazguls appear to startle no-one. The Black Breath (I think?) came over a lot of men in Minas Tirith merely from being in proximity to the Nazgul - their very presence was enough to affect people up to the point of death. Here they are a bit of a novelty: 'Is it a bird? Is it a plane? Noo! It's a Nazgul! Errm... wossat - should I be scared?' Quote:
Would have been interesting to see how things would have turned out if Faramir had gone - Boromir's desire for the Ring ultimately turned to good, but who could have foreseen that at the time? |
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12-19-2002, 05:07 PM | #99 |
Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
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I don't suppose I'll find anything to say that people haven't said already, but I don't care - I want to talk about TT, even if no one's listening!
Well, the problems are obvious: Faramir and Elves at Helm's Deep. And the strange, strange "death" of Aragorn - why? what did it achieve? I was very confused at that point! - and the exorcism of Theoden. But why be critical? (Like that ever stopped me before ) I loved the film. I had higher expectations than for FOTR, and most them were fulfilled. I can even forgive Haldir getting in the way at exciting moments! Gollum was fantastic, not just as CGI but as a character too (though can't give Jackson the credit for that one) I never, ever thought I could feel so sorry for Gollum that I was angry with Sam - but I did in this film. I cried for Gollum. I couldn't believe it. And the Dead Marshes - wow. Sure, the Ents weren't quite right for me and Merry and Pippin were as irritating as ever, but I forgive it. I'm happy!
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. Last edited by sun-star : 12-19-2002 at 05:09 PM. |
12-19-2002, 05:08 PM | #100 | ||
Elf Lord
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BTW - I think I made a mistake on it anyway - isn't Chariots of Fire the official Olympics tune? Oops |
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