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10-14-2010, 07:44 PM | #361 | |
Best Ex-Administrator ever
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10-14-2010, 08:31 PM | #362 | |
Elf Lord
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I also disagree with Dr. Cannold. Certainly autonomy is a moral value in any society, but I wouldn't say it's the central value- I'm more of a communitarian than that. OTOH, since "respect for life" in this case actually means "the State has the right to override your choice and order you to continue living no matter what kind of pain and suffering you're undergoing", I'd disagree with that, too. Assisted sucide- any kind of suicde- is tricky. While I believe in the right to end one's own life if one chooses, the question of depression as an illness means we have to be very careful in assessing each case. Still, to cede to the government the power to order someone to be kept alive in spite of their considered wishes seems to me to be too much power over our lives to be handed to the State.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 10-14-2010 at 08:32 PM. |
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10-14-2010, 08:38 PM | #363 |
Best Ex-Administrator ever
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[QUOTE=inked;659430]
Ideologically, Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot were all atheists and practised the logical consequences of the state is most important upon their subjects. [\quote] This is a non-sequitur. And a shocking poor one even if you consider your frankly quite poor and unimpressively vulgar record on here. Atheism, as we've discussed, isn't a very helpful or meaningful term, and there can be no logical consequence to absolutely anything, let alone totalitarian statism what you've described, from the non-belief in deities, no more than football fanaticism. Perhaps the problem with monsters like Stalin and co that their legacies were too much like the great traditional religions of history: they were monolithic, authoritarian, responded to dissent and competing organisations (such as religion in Russia) with brutal violence, relied on pomp and ceremony and demagogury and propaganda to control and mislead populations. Stalin was certainly correct, in his personal life, to reject to the superstitions and false consolations (there's a Marxian phrase for you) of the religion of his childhood and education, but perhaps he never rejected the techniques... Nevertheless, no decent person, 'atheist' or not should find Stalin's authoritarianism and supression of individual autonomy - of which freedom of religion was one aspect - as anything but appallingly wicked and deplorable. Now I know, and everyone else knows, that you don't often respond on here when you get refuted or challenged on anything, but lets try and get a few facts from you: what is the historical evidence that says the that the violence from so-called athiest regimes (of which the Nazis most definitely can't be considered to belong to, and the United States probably could be argued to) is far greater in terms of body count to the entire long and disgraceful record of religions? |
10-14-2010, 08:46 PM | #364 |
Elf Lord
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Or, as Nilsson said:
Oh, I'd rather be dead--I'd rather be dead I'd rather be dead, than wet my bed I'd rather keep my health--and dress myself But you're better off dead than sitting on a shelf I'll tie my tie 'till the day I die But if I have to be fed, then I'd rather be dead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV-oYe4xLkU
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 10-14-2010 at 08:47 PM. |
10-14-2010, 08:58 PM | #365 | |
Elf Lord
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From the article, it looks like the Malawi Muslim League reacted the same way that church groups in America did- they disowned it as an action by a few extremists. Also, note that the Bibles were being distributed in Muslim schools- what would be the reaction if a Muslim group started distributing Korans in Christian schools in America? As to why Obama shold react to this, I would point out that in spite of the looney-toon beliefs of an unfortunately large group of Americans on the right, Obama is the American president of the USA, not an African president of an African country.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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10-14-2010, 09:13 PM | #366 | |
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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10-15-2010, 01:33 PM | #367 | |
Quasi Evil
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10-15-2010, 02:10 PM | #368 |
the Shrike
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For the record, I am a Gnu Atheist.
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10-15-2010, 06:47 PM | #369 |
Elf Lord
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What, you don't believe in gnus?
Right enough, come to think of it, I've never seen one. |
10-16-2010, 12:03 AM | #370 |
Elf Lord
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Yes, being an atheist brings out the wildebeest in me too.
Gnu atheists rule! Down with the running dogs of Mooneyite accommodationism!
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
10-16-2010, 12:13 AM | #371 |
Elf Lord
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Yes- except that I don't think "respect for life" is an accurate description of the issue being discussed. IMHO "the body must be kept functioning at all costs" does not equal 'respect for life'.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
10-16-2010, 12:53 AM | #372 |
Elf Lord
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As in, you're 94, you've been lying immobile in a bed for the last four years with drips feeding you because you can't digest anymore, you're blind, you can't smell or taste anything, can barely hear,and can speak only a few words and your entire body is in agony. You beg somebody to please end it for you and the reply is, "sorry, we have too much respect for life".
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
10-16-2010, 10:21 AM | #373 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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To my mind, that's a question of quality of life, which is different from life as such.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
10-16-2010, 06:10 PM | #374 |
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I've seen the name used several times now on different sites and I still haven't figured out exactly what it stands for. Care to enlighten me?
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10-17-2010, 02:28 AM | #375 | |
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Sam Harris and Daniel Dennett. Since "New Atheist " is often used pejoratively - "They're so strident!" "They don't address the deepest arguments of theologians" "They're too disrespectful" "They don't show existential despair over the Death of God like those nice old 19th-Century atheists"- Gnu Atheist was adopted as a snarky self-reference. http://richarddawkins.net/users/3648/comments http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress....theist-symbol/ For some of the real strident types, like Ophelia Benson and PZ Myers, there is a war against 'accomodationists'- those, like science writer Chris Mooney, who, while being atheists themselves, advocate co-operating with liberal-minded believers against the religious fundamentalists. The infighting can get to the point where it's like the old battles of the Trotskyite splinter groups, of the "not the People's Liberation Front of Judea!" variety.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 10-17-2010 at 02:31 AM. |
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10-17-2010, 02:58 AM | #376 |
Elf Lord
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Well, in that case, then, no, I do not think that "keeping bodies functioning biologically " should be the core moral principle in a civilised society.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
10-17-2010, 07:19 AM | #377 | |
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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10-17-2010, 05:05 PM | #378 | |
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10-17-2010, 06:43 PM | #379 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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In response to Insidious Rex's and Comic Book Guy's discussion, I might as well come out with my atheism.
I could describe myself as a non-religious person. Still, even as much as I dislike to openly call myself an atheist (because the word almost implies a critical stance against religion) "atheist" would be what I am. In my world-view there are no deities, spirits, souls or afterlife whatsoever - and imo that is stretching it further than simply being "non-religious". I am an atheist then, but definitely one of the more accommodating kinds when it comes to religion in western society. I like the idea of people believing in things divine. My focus is not on the backsides of religion, I don't linger by descriptions such as irrationality and superstition. I rather see belief's positive effects on people - I think it provides joy and comfort and promotes goodness. I consider my atheistic views to be no more than a simple lack of belief in a deity or an afterlife of sorts. I don't regard myself as part of a global collective of atheists, neither do I think of "atheism" as being my personal belief or religion. I see no gain in trying to promote atheism, nor to criticise religion for its un-scientificness. My point being this; both IRex and CBC are right in their own way, as I think there is more than one correct usage of the word "atheism". While there are "gnu atheists" like BoP, there's the other end of the spectrum where you find people like me
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10-17-2010, 08:43 PM | #380 |
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German Chancellor says that "multikulti" has failed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451 And it's on the BBC so it must be true, accurate, and all that sort of thing!
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