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#301 |
Kraken King
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Under the sea
Posts: 2,714
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I'm writing a 12 page report on stem cells, and when I saw that article in the news, I decided to use it. Now maybe the contraversy will be over, but I'm sure someone will bring something else up.
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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#302 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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There's a lot of ifs right there in your post Earniel. I see no reason to suppose that stem cells which are harvested thusly would be the same as stem cells from an embryo.
No doubt this will "strengthen" the argument of those who oppose embryonic stem cell research. However, since science currently proceeds by rational inquiry, I expect both branches of the research to continue. |
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#303 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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You mean like this: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071120/D8T14OD80.html
When the science is done incorrectly to advance an agenda? or, when the science corrects itself because of errors because of an agenda? or, other wcientists correct the errors incorporated in previous studies to more accurate estimates of the reality? (like approximating the diameter of the earth or the speed of light of the number of patients with HIV/AIDS)? Who would ever have thought the UN would botch this sort of thing after the marvelous success of Food for Oil ? Do not forget that there may be agendas other than science per se at work.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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#304 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Here are the methodologies involved:
Revised HIV estimates Overview As published in the 2007 AIDS epidemic update, WHO and UNAIDS have revised the estimated number of people living with HIV downwards from 39.5 million [34.1-47.1 million] in 2006 to 33.2 million [30.6–36.1 million], in 2007. The revisions are due mainly to improved methodology, better surveillance by countries and changes in the key epidemiological assumptions used to calculate the estimates. Approximately 70% of the difference is explained by reductions in prevalence in India (which alone accounts for approximately half of the revisions) and several sub-Saharan African countries, including Nigeria, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Kenya and Angola. Most of the estimates in the 2007 AIDS epidemic update are lower than those published in previous reports, not just for 2007 but also for past years. Revisions to methodology In 2007 UNAIDS and WHO undertook the most comprehensive review of HIV and AIDS estimation methodology since 2001. This step was taken as part of the continuing process of refining HIV estimates based on the latest scientific developments. As recommended by the UNAIDS Reference Group on Estimates, Modelling and Projections.1 In addition, from 14-15 November 2007, UNAIDS and WHO convened an international consultation on HIV estimates, bringing together more than 30 global experts to review the processes methodologies and tools used by UNAIDS and WHO to produce HIV estimates. The consultation recognised that UNAIDS and WHO’s 2007 estimates are based on the best available data and methodologies and made a number of recommendations. The recommendations are available on the UNAIDS Web site (see International consultation on AIDS estimates: Recommendations). Improvements in surveillance Over the past few years a number of countries, mostly in sub-Saharan Africa and Asia, have expanded and improved their HIV surveillance systems, conducting new, more accurate studies. These new data have been used to help produce a better understanding of the global AIDS epidemic. In some countries, improvements have been through an increase of sentinel surveillance sites both in number and in geographical coverage. In addition, 30 countries, mostly in Africa, have conducted national representative population-based household surveys.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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#305 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Well that would be an example of rational enquiry, as methods of gathering data and extrapolating to a larger population improve.
I'm not sure why you use AIDS as an example here. As one of the Millennium Development Goals, there is an (explicit) agenda, for sure. But anyway, science would have to establish equivalence between the two types of stem cell in order to abandon one. |
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#306 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Gaffer, It was an immediately available news story that illustrated the application of scientific principles to a particular subject which has had enormous political ramifications. The story documents the changing numbers related to techniques of study AND the differing understandings of why those errors ocurred. Science is thus not "pure" or devoid of intentionalities that are less than pure (funding, anyone?).
The embryonic stem cell imbroglio is similarly filled with inaccurate evaluations of possibilities and requirements and applicabilities. IT is highly politicized around the world, and, like AIDS/HIV, it involves human lives. Thus there could be profitable comparisons and parallels between the two areas of "science" involved.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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#307 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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OK, I can agree with that.
Though I think the uncertainties around stem cell research are greater, as we cannot predict with any confidence what specific benefits will arise. It's basic research, after all. I agree that, in this sphere of research, scientists are often guilty of being carried away by the requirement for hyperbolae amongst the media. However, it may be argued (by a rational, non-hyperbolic scientist type person) that it's thus impossible to prove equivalence between harvested and embryonic stem cells at this stage in the game. |
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#308 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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Quote:
I got news for you bub, natural selection ain't the only tool in the evolution-arsenal. Gene manipulation, sexual selection, extended life-spans through 'interfering' - it's all part of the same process.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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#309 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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random thought - isn't it odd how the word "science" has been personified? It's always "science" that proves things, never "scientists".
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#310 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
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I suppose that depends on your speech patterns. If I talk to my dad about science-stuff and new discoveries I nearly always use scientists.
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We are not things. |
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#311 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#312 | |
Elf Lady
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In the lands where mountains are but a fairytale
Posts: 8,588
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Quote:
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
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#313 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Science .. stem cells ...
Here ya are: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1123/p01s01-uspo.htm Altering the environment for sure.
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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#314 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Quote:
And overpopulation is an even bigger concern that simply dwarfs arguments like global warming. But the idea of controlling population, no matter how good for the species, is so repugnant to most people that we won't address it until we must. Of course, nature does have a way for dealing with overpopulation as well... new diseases! ![]()
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#315 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Mostly, of course, we practice economic eugenics. If your insurance is all that, anything will be done to further your goals. If not...well, as Jesus said, "The poor will always be with us."
Not much of a system, as "justice" goes. Since justice is an arbitrary social construct, however, I guess it's okay. ![]()
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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#316 | |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
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Quote:
I'm not sure there were actually less disease-causing genes in the population back in the middle-ages or even the stone age, even though there was probably more of a selective pressure and natural selection back then. I'd think most genetic diseases would persist quite well (or at least for a very long time) in a contemporary social darwinistic socety were the sick were left to die off. Any thoughts? (I'm using the term genetic disease in it's broadest sence in this post).
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An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
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#317 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
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Survival while having genetic weaknesses is one thing, but the weaknesses also have to be passed on to stay in the population.
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We are not things. |
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#318 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Quote:
It may be that some day we know so much about genetics that we'll be able to trace every freckle back to its genetic source. But that won't give us the wisdom to anticipate new conditions where a mutation might be useful, or even essential. If we all needed to bring down the Mammoth, maybe there would be less contact lens solution sold. But I'm not ready to discard people with corrected vision from the population, kwim? They might come in handy. ![]()
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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#319 | ||
Kraken King
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Under the sea
Posts: 2,714
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Quote:
Quote:
__________________
One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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#320 | |
Elf Lady
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In the lands where mountains are but a fairytale
Posts: 8,588
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Quote:
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__________________
Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
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