01-25-2006, 05:22 PM | #841 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
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I'm really sorry to hear about your friend, Rian.
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I wouldn't mind Him stopping all murders.. and why not on the other hand? There is a difference between a murder and other cruelties, say robbery or just being mean. But it's his decision, I just wonder - why didn't he help when he was truly needed? Quote:
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01-25-2006, 05:39 PM | #842 | ||
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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C.S. Lewis makes a right point in saying that there is no such thing as "The Sum of Human Suffering" as if you can put a certain amount of people together that feel pain and have more pain. Each may sympathise with eachother, but they can only feel their own pain...etc. Quote:
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01-25-2006, 06:11 PM | #843 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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thanks, everyone, for your sympathy - she's at the neurosurgeon's right now (she's a nurse and knows and respects this guy)
I'm not able to articulate any type of post right now, but thank you for answering, Rad! I think you're asking good questions. I always enjoy posting with you I really feel that I have some honest answers, or starts of answers, to some of them, and hope to post soon.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-25-2006, 10:35 PM | #844 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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The first point is that most of the Jews have rejected Jesus Christ as Lord. Consistently in Old Testament scriptures, when the Jews turned away from God, they experienced judgment as a result. Eventually, the everyone will be judged according to whether or not they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. However, according to the Christian Epistles, both judgment and blessing, as well as rewards, come always "first to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles," for the Jews are God's chosen people. The Jews' rejection of the Christ is no excuse for those who persecute them. Anti-Semitism is completely wicked. However, in the Old Testament, God often used wicked people with twisted philosophies to punish Israel for its sins. Assyria and Babylon would be two good examples. The persecution of the Jews that has occurred so strongly since the time of Jesus probably is in part because of the fact that they are God's chosen people, yet according to Christian theology, also denying God. God's judgments and his rewards always come "first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles." The second point is also based on Christian theology. It is a pretty horrible point, as well. None of this is at all nice; it's all very, very ugly and horrible. When the Jews crucified Jesus, they cried out, "may his blood be on our heads and on our children." Thus, they cursed the Jewish people. The first phase of their curse: "may his blood be on our heads," was fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. I believe that the second part of the curse has pursued the Jews since. This curse is not elaborated on in the scripture, so far as I know. It is recorded though, and the power of both curses and blessings is strongly attested in the Old Testament. So here are two points that are consistent with the God of the Old Testament, but only make sense if one accepts Christian theology. If one denies Christian theology, I can see how all the terrible persecution the Jews have been experiencing since the time of Christ would appear to make no sense. These are comments about the Jews in general, from a Christian perspective. I know, not all Christians will necessarily agree with me. However, they are my best understanding of what has happened to the Jews for the last 2,000 years, and have New Testament backing, as well as Old Testament consistency. I definitely apologize if I seem at all heartless when I say what I do. The Holocaust was an unspeakable tragedy, a nightmare beyond imagination. It is one of the worst blots on human history. After all this, I can understand you or others losing heart at the enormity of the evil and injustice that have been done you. I am a firm believer that the God I know personally, the God of the Old Testament and the New, is a righteous, holy and loving God. He took all of our sufferings upon himself, experiencing them and conquering them. He became one of us, and that makes him more trustworthy and in a way closer to us than he would be otherwise. Jesus also said that every evil act anyone does to anyone else, he also experiences. The new world that God will create after this one will no longer have pain as a part of it. One of the answers I hold to regarding pain in this world is that certain aspects of God's nature are impossible for us to understand without first understanding suffering and evil. We could not experience God's mercy or justice if we did not also experience injustice and cruelty. Without sin, we would have no frame of reference from which to understand what God was talking about, when he says he judges sin. God hates evil and loves good, but this would be incomprehensible if there were no evil. Furthermore, the glory revealed to God's followers after the suffering far outweighs what suffering we do experience here. It is the reward of righteousness, and of righteousness in the face of suffering and darkness. Many of the strongest Christians have been those who suffered. From the Old Testament, we know that most of the Jews who worshiped God also suffered. This suffering strengthened their faith rather than weakening it. Those who stood the trial came closer to God than ever. This is a positive aspect of suffering. Yet God will save Israel. He will have mercy on Zion, and in love will press it to his bosom, showering it with all the blessings of old and more. Then, those of us Gentiles who bless Israel will be blessed. Evil will crack against Zion. The time will come when your people lead ours in the way of salvation (Zechariah 14:16), just as in the past Israel was a light to the nations. And Jesus will be our king, as living water flows from his throne through all who believe in his name.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-26-2006 at 01:14 AM. |
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01-26-2006, 12:28 PM | #845 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
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but to "believe" in christianity as R*an suggested, i'd have to either resolve those doubts, which i have not even after reading reams of "evidence", or be insincere and just ignore them, which i will not do either
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01-26-2006, 04:51 PM | #846 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
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BJ,
Are you upset that the Creator has a few rules for life? As I recall, the folks that made my jigsaw aren't considered proud for the instruction book! Your statement was rather absolute: "... i said that "i can't concieve of anything i could witness that would make me believe in a christian god"..." for a relativist I mean .
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-26-2006, 05:37 PM | #847 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i'm not upset... they're not my rules
while some do make practical sense, others do not (from my relative pov ), and there's an awful lot of muscle-flexing mixed in... it just doesn't strike me as something a supposedly "perfect being" would say
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
01-26-2006, 06:14 PM | #848 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
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01-26-2006, 07:13 PM | #849 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I know what you mean, though, brownie ... but I think that objection goes away with some thought on the subject ... btw, what's your definition of humble? I have lots of points I want to post about, maybe next week... keep talking, guys!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 01-26-2006 at 07:16 PM. |
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01-26-2006, 07:18 PM | #850 | |
Mootis per forum
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01-26-2006, 09:38 PM | #851 | ||||||||||||||
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There has been a lot of activity in this thread. Wowz. You guys are awesome.
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If I had a child who was 25, I would let him make his own decisions. I would give him advice sometimes (solicited or otherwise), and I would have raised him to be a kind person which hopefully would have worked out, but ultimately his life decisions would be his. That's more how I see God's relationship with humanity. I have a hard time putting some of my feelings on this into words - I see our relationship as being more complex than what I wrote, but I think that's a decent analogy. (All analogies, at some point, fall apart.) Quote:
I could accept that He guides us. I'm not sure how that would work though. Quote:
Frodo had a personality and made decisions solely because Tolkien wrote him that way. Frodo is nothing at all without Tolkien. Is that what you mean about predestination? (I'm not judging this point.) I'm glad to know that you don't use predestination as a cop-out. Not that I thought you would anyway. Quote:
With free will, I could choose to work hard in life and try to help other people. I could also choose to be nasty to people. Or I could just coast through life. Without free will, any of those outcomes are no longer choices. Then, what's the point of working hard? I used to train in karate with this guy whose parents forced him to take karate. He was very talented, but he didn't want to be there. Karate didn't hold any meaning for him, and he quit as soon as he was allowed. I chose to take karate, so I worked very hard. My friend had a lot of talent, but since he didn't really want to be there, all his work was towards being allowed to quit (which was when he got his black belt). Life is like karate then. If someone is making you do it, what's the point? Good luck on your exams Lief! I'm going to try out a scenario from a predestination standpoint. Let's say you get an A- on your exam, because you studied hard. Would that mean God decided you would work hard, and remember what you studied, to get that great mark? (I hope this is so. ) Quote:
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LOL Spock! Quote:
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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01-26-2006, 10:11 PM | #852 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-26-2006, 10:53 PM | #853 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-27-2006, 04:53 AM | #854 | |||
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What did you think of the rest of the post?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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01-27-2006, 09:56 AM | #855 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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i understand the concept that, if you believe god is as all-powerful as stated, you could say "why should he put on false modesty?", but i'd say, "why not?" if his concepts of morality are so good for humanity, they should be powerful enough in and of themselves... it's unnecessary for such a god to say things such as: Quote:
to me, this seems to put very little value on how you live your life... i'm not saying that i know whether or not this god is the true god... i'm just saying that even if this is the true god, i could not go along with this kind of philosophy... i'd much prefer a god that focused more on how you live your life here on earth and less on whether or not you recognize and appreciate his status repentance just isn't enough in my eyes for some actions
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-27-2006, 10:29 AM | #856 |
Elf Lord
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OH, Nurv, not the truth thingy again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Recall that Socrates defined truth in words of one syllable: Truth is to say of that which is that it is and of that which is not that it is not, and not to say of that which is that it is not and of that which is not that it is. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THAT?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-27-2006, 10:46 AM | #857 |
Mootis per forum
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I understand your point, BJ, but I believe that you cannot read the Bible that way.
See, God does not speak to us like a teacher does to his/her class... he reveals Himself to us at a very slow pace from the begining of humanity. For this relelation he uses nature and other elements, being one of the most important the history of his chosen people and the recording of hat history in the Bible. The history of Israel shows us how God is revealing himself introducing concept after concept through the stories of individual remarkable characters of that people (Abraham, Mosses, Isiah...). Each story or book comes with new teachings that could not be uderstood before. All this revelation process tends to prepare us for the definite step: a personal revelation of himself when he sends his Son so we can knew "the human face of God". There, in Jesus, you can see what means humility in God: from his birth in Bethlehem to his dead refused by us in the cross. Can you conceive a greater humiliation?
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
01-27-2006, 11:08 AM | #858 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i understand... it's just the "his chosen people" part that gets me... he seems to be rather selective in who he chooses to enlighten... you can go back to adam and eve... he tells them not to eat the fruit from the tree, but he doesn't take the time to say why... basically it's just "because i am who i am and i said so"
if you choose to give people free will and are also going to hold them accountable for how they exercise that freewill, yet give them very little in the way of a roadmap on what you expect, you are not really being that fair (IMO, just for spock ) it's like leaving a child in the middle of new york city and saying "be careful"... and then judging them 60 years later by how they turned out and many of the revelations came hundreds of years after many had lived their entire lives, the jesus one included... not to mention the fact that what may have happened in the middle east 2000 years ago took many hundreds, if not thousands of years in some cases, to reach the rest of the world and it doesn't address the mother-teresa-type who just happens to be a buddhist because of who her parents were and where she grew up... it has a members-only feeling to it that i just can't warm up to... this is not to say that it is a bad morality to live life by if you are in fact a member (and this is not exclusive to christianity at all, that is just what we are talking about at the moment) i guess i'd just expect a creator to take a much wider approach to guiding his creation
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
01-27-2006, 11:25 AM | #859 | ||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-27-2006 at 11:26 AM. |
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01-27-2006, 11:25 AM | #860 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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