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12-22-2004, 02:19 AM | #41 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Oh and before you or anyone else calims that I'm saying all muslims are like this - I'm not. I'm saying it is prevalent in the Arab world and other countries which have large Arab populations.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 12-22-2004 at 02:21 AM. |
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12-22-2004, 03:22 AM | #42 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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I will point out briefly that in this article Mr. Jacoby had nothing to say about Muslim policies (for example school teachings) or government actions in any countries except Malaysia (does it have a Muslim government? This is a genuine rather then rhetorical question). Mr. Jacoby's essential argument throughout the article is that lack of response indicates Anti-Semitic belief. I'd say that lack of response is completely logical in view of the fact that the Israeli/Palestinian issue is such a hot topic among Palestinians and Arabs in general. No one is going to be willing to express much support for Jews at a time like this. That some of the leaders of countries should express support for a speech that contains anti-semitism isn't too surprising, though it is sad.
In view of the Israeli/Palestinian issue, it seems logical to me that there is a rise of anti-semitism in the Muslim world. How great and extensive an increase I don't know, but I expect Jacoby is somewhat correct. However, in spite of the logic of Jacoby's remarks concerning the issue, I would be quicker to believe Condoleezza Rice's assessment of the situation regarding the Muslim nations then Jeff Jacoby's. Condoleezza Rice said that she believed the speech was not an emblem of the views of the Muslim World as a whole, and I believe her. I think the anti-semitism is there and it probably is increasing, but I don't know that it's possible to pass it off as "emblematic of the Muslim world." You know, the Muslim book the Koran says that Jews and Christians are second best to Muslims. Jerusalem was also the place the Muslims initially turned toward in prayer, rather then Mecca. The Muslim religion in my opinion is certainly not at all anti-semitic. It's the Israeli/Palestinian situation that is causing an increase in anti-semitism. That anti-semitism should increase is logical, though very sad. I hope it hasn't gone as far as Jacoby believes it has. I don't think that the anti-Israel people are all anti-Jew, though. I'm not convinced.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-22-2004 at 03:27 AM. |
12-22-2004, 03:32 AM | #43 | |
Elf Lord
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~Lief
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-22-2004 at 03:34 AM. |
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12-22-2004, 03:47 AM | #44 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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By the way - you need more than just knowledgeable people - you need people who actually read about what what the history of the middle east is and what has happened in the middle east - as well as what is happening there. As for the article - the statements go far beyond what you claim as "anti-semitic". Did you not read the part where the person made the statement for the Muslim world to pretend to come to peace with israel - while building up a counter attack to destroy them? Now is that really the sign that they want peace? With that statement alone - there is evidence that they temselves do not believe that israel is out to destroy them - but honestly wishes for peace - otherwise peace accords and so forth would not matter and would not bide them time to build up a counterattack.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-22-2004, 04:37 AM | #45 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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I don't think anti-semitism was involved in the thinking of the Arab nations that attacked Israel in 1948 either. They attacked for a number of reasons, some of them religious and some of them humanitarian. Their kinsmen in Palestine were being expelled from their homes by Jewish soldiers. The Arabs of course made a terrible mistake when they lied about Israeli atrocities, hoping to cause an uprising among Palestinians but instead instigating a massive panic that caused vast numbers of people to flee. Weizman described this to be "a miraculous simplification of Israel's tasks." Anyhow, I've already written about all this earlier. I read that many Palestinians were furious at the Arab nations for not coming more swiftly to help them. Quote:
As for the chances of peace, I'll research them a bit. I have watched tapes on the history of Israel from its origins to Clinton's administration, but they didn't cover everything to my satisfaction. Quote:
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Jersey, I don't like how you use the word "they" and "them," most of the time. One speaker doesn't represent the whole Muslim world. Neither does he necessarily represent its majority. It's generalizations of people and issues that I've been fighting against most of the time, in our discussion up to this point. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-22-2004, 04:53 AM | #46 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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I find it interesting that you seem to have no problem in generalizing israelis. I also slove how you come up with every known excuse and reason for why the audience gave the speaker a standing ovation. maybe you choose to ignore the cheering in the streets when innocent people are killed in Israel. I'm wondering - how many israelis do you see going out and cheering the death of innocent palestinians?
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 12-22-2004 at 04:55 AM. |
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12-22-2004, 05:06 AM | #47 | |||
The Dude
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: at the altar of my ego
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Im quite sure many places in australia can be described as backward, hell some call us a backward NATION, but i would hope we had a little more intelligence than to think of something as incredibly stupid as that... Quote:
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Ill heal your wounds, ill set you free, |
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12-22-2004, 05:31 AM | #48 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-22-2004, 05:47 AM | #49 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Jerseydevil, I think I'm actually done with this discussion. I am going to be so busy tomorrow and the other upcoming days preparing for Christmas, I don't think I'll have time for Entmoot. I need to straighten out my priorities, and I have a big problem with debates of this kind. I just get sucked in and can't leave them no matter what! My fate. Alack.
Talk to you more later . ~Lief
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
12-22-2004, 07:52 AM | #50 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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Shall I re-name it? Perhaps... 'The Pointless Argument Thread'?
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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12-22-2004, 08:28 AM | #51 |
Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
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EDIT: Nevermind. It's Christmas after all.
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. Last edited by sun-star : 12-22-2004 at 09:16 AM. |
12-22-2004, 10:19 AM | #52 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Free, happy, drunk and sincere
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Oh, "edit", and all that my "brave" (??) mooter's.
Carry on for the new year, captians and generall among you... The light shines least when its carried alone.. Useless. Oh. but thump your chests and cry havoc... after all. USELESS.
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Audaces fortuna juvat Last edited by Fenir_LacDanan : 12-22-2004 at 10:21 AM. |
12-22-2004, 01:44 PM | #53 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Millane,
"Originally Posted by inked Most amusing having an Irishman pontificate on tolerance! Be ye a religious, Irishman, now? Would reference to a splinter in thy neighbor's eye versus the plank in thine own be of any use? hahahaha quite useless, Fenir is a born again aussie" Ahhh, I see! or I don't? Was that born-again Irish or born-again Aussie? See, one of Tolkien's complaint was that CSL couldn't get the Irish out of his system! LOL! Specifically, the Ulster component! So, Pardon me if I get kind of *twitchy* when one inaugarates the use of born-again Irish as a descriptor! And, if I may make so trenchant an observation, whilst the Irish may have saved civilization (as a book title sould have it!), does that mean that on cannot bait them? Ever seen BLAZING SADDLES ? Not at all PC on the nationalities of Americans, I must confess, but uproariously funny (watch out though for the ethical/moral subtexting - all too Socratic of them, actually!) Been my pleasure to know a number of Aussie's in my time. Delightful! I even considered relocation to "down under" but the Empire's adoption of inadequate renumeration for MD's put the kibosh on that! Not that I don't admire that Crocodile Dundee fellow and all.... Is Fenir like that? one can only wish, I suppose!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
12-22-2004, 02:42 PM | #54 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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What about "How We Perceive Arabs/Islam" or "Islam: Perception, Propaganda and Truth" or something along those lines.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-22-2004, 02:48 PM | #55 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-22-2004, 03:21 PM | #56 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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ok... how bout "Our Perception of Islam: My way or the Highway"
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
12-22-2004, 03:29 PM | #57 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-22-2004, 06:01 PM | #58 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-22-2004, 06:16 PM | #59 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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I thought this was the "America Bashing while discussing Islamic influences not in Europe" thread. Speaking of which, where is the miscreant who forced Valandil to split yet another thread? Do you think Val will double his sig line about how arduous is thread splitting?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
12-22-2004, 10:59 PM | #60 | |
Cyber Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Left of Rock, Right of Hard Place
Posts: 986
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I thought the US was a Republic?
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
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