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12-06-2004, 07:37 PM | #21 | |||
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It makes me doubt all the other acts reported in this article - how bad is the situation really? (1) There's nothing wrong with Göterborg. I just wanted to name a Swedish city that wasn't Stockholm or Malmö.
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12-06-2004, 09:43 PM | #22 |
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In one of my classes we're looking at how Germany (and to some extent other European countries) has dealt with immigrants and integrating them into society, since the 1950's. And a lot of what I've noticed is that because of discrimination in society, immigrant groups tend to be assisted into isolating themselves from the greater society, while at the same time being blamed for not wanting to integrate. I don't want to lay the blame on any one group of people, because that is impossible, and irresponsible. But, the truth is that the situation can't get better if people aren't willing to recognize their own part in creating the problems they live with.
About the Netherlands... What bothered me most when I heard about the death of the filmmaker VanGogh, was that it seemed no one who was angry with him, and the woman who wrote the screenplay, attempted to answer his film, or begin a dialogue. They just took the easy path and used violence. How can this world be a worthwhile place to live, if people aren't even willing to put forth the effort to make it such? How can we hope to be accepted, or at the least, tolerated if we are unwilling to spend the time to tolerate others? I also don't understand why the violence happened now, and not some other time, but then again, I am not very aware of what the political climate in the Netherlands has been. And finally My opinion on U.S. national identity as opposed to the national identities of individual European countries is: because we (the U.S.), as a people are so diverse, and constantly changing, we are unable to really have much in common with each other, other than the country we inhabit. When I do find people I share more than a few opinions with, it's always a great surprise and delight, but I also love hearing new ideas, beacause sometimes (more often than I admit) I realize that these new ideas are better than my previous ones. Last edited by Embladyne : 12-06-2004 at 09:45 PM. |
12-07-2004, 04:13 AM | #23 | |||
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I cannot speak for other countries than Norway really, but I do think France is somewhat special within Europe, in that they so totally dismiss every form of religious expression in public fora and places, from the state level down to each individual. This is so different from my country as it can be, we have a state church here! I agree with you in this: Why should we care about how people dress. That is really not important. There are far more serious matters we have to deal with, which are more bound to culture and habits than religion, I think. Such as the practise with circumcise (is that spelled correctly? Is it the right word?) of women, as an example. Quote:
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12-07-2004, 05:51 AM | #24 | ||
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Surely, the worldview which rejects tolerance as weakness is coming close to the Islamist intolerance it claims to reject.
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. Last edited by sun-star : 12-07-2004 at 05:54 AM. |
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12-07-2004, 06:24 AM | #25 | |
Elf Lord
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The message I take from this is that racism is endemic throughout Europe, and you only have to scratch the surface for it to emerge. T'was ever thus, for centuries. (However, the idea that the US is a Nirvana of racial harmony by comparison is frankly laughable.)
As the article notes, each country has unique ethnic and racial demographics. France seems to have a particularly large and vocal anti-immigrant sector (e.g. le Pen), but it's different from the situation in Germany and Italy. Here in the UK, for example, there is a wide gulf between urban and rural attitudes towards race. People where I live generally have a tolerant and/or celebratory attitude towards such diversity, whereas you still hear of Asian families being run out of town out in the sticks. I don't regard The Times, btw, as an "august and reliable" publication any more. For one thing, it's a Murdoch organ, which means, for example, you won't read too many stories that are critical of the Chinese government in there (because Rupe covets their broadcasting rights). This particular story reeks of bias: Quote:
Having said that, I think that Europe has failed to grasp the nettle of racism. I would like to see an EU-wide law similar to the British law against "incitement to racial hatred". The EU has enshrined equality of the sexes in its basic principles and it needs to do more to ensure that this applies to race and religion as well. The disgusting behaviour of some Spanish football fans at the recent game v England is just another example of this. 20 years ago we had the same problem here, but it's been pretty much eradicated from the terraces by a combination of policy, education and the majority of decent fans. Now, it would be policed by the fans and if someone started doing monkey chants whenever a black player got the ball, they would get collared PDQ. |
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12-07-2004, 06:51 AM | #26 | |||
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Such a thing is unheard of in the Dutch culture, so I can understand some people became quite infuriated with it. (I find it infuriating myself, but I don't go firing religious houses over it.) And the burning of mosques (haven't heard any of schools, can't remember) were IMO also isolated incidents, it was far from being grand-scale. But regardless of that, setting fire to those mosques still is bloody stupid. Quote:
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12-07-2004, 07:01 AM | #27 | ||||
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A problem is that Islam is a bellicose religion, (just think of the concept of Jihad; that is not just about inner struggle); and is a hands-on religion that tries to regulate all aspects of Human life. Fundamentalists will typically want to follow a literal interpretation of the Koran, and often of the Charia, and that is incompatible with Western values, even when they are willing to keep to themselves. It cannot be allowed that a group maintains itself apart from the laws of the State, and regress to practices that limit Human liberty, more so when they try to apply these limitations to others that, while born in the group, don’t share those values, or, sometimes, even to others totally alien to the group. That said, it is important to say, that this is far from being a problem of the majority of the Islamic community. Nevertheless, this moderate majority will need to be more vocal in the future and to cooperate with the rest of society against the radical elements in their midst. Quote:
Many see those scarves as symbols of female oppression. But more, they are tools of self-segregation. It separates, “us” from “them.” The same principle is responsible for the original imposition of the use of school uniforms on earlier days; it was a way to eliminate the class barriers between groups of students, or for the ban of gang colours used elsewhere. Neither was fully successful of course, but neither was entirely unsuccessful, either.
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion Last edited by Elvellon : 12-07-2004 at 07:31 AM. |
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12-07-2004, 09:50 PM | #28 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I'm going to have to respond to the above - but not today and most likely not tomorrow (I'm taking the Beslan students around Princeton tomorrow).
I did want to post something someone sent me and see what people's thoughts are - especially those who live in Europe. I "know" from watching French news - that this reaction to Jews is not restricted to just Germany. Quote:
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12-08-2004, 04:47 AM | #29 | ||||
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12-08-2004, 06:20 AM | #30 | |
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12-08-2004, 07:23 AM | #31 | |
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I can't speak for the rest of Europe, but I certainly find the thought of the Islamisation of the UK far-fetched, for three reasons. Firstly, (and this is probably not realised by many Americans), this is an avowedly secular country. Not by policy - because officially State and Church are linked by the monarch - but by attitude. Making a public issue of your faith - any faith - might give you a niche fan club, but is often career suicide. Even England football coaches have paid the price in the past! Secondly there are very well established lobbies that will often be diametrically opposed to any attempt to impose the teachings of any faith on public life - women's and gay rights come to mind. Finally, has anyone considered that we should have some confidence that Western values will change newcomers rather than vice versa? There may well be rent-a-quote clerics and angry young poor kids saying their religion is on the one true religion and they will spread it yadda yadda, but they are one end of the immigrant spectrum. At the other end are very Westernised people who will have the occasional alcoholic tipple, oppose arranged marriages, happily obey the secular law of the land, buy The Streets albums etc. The key is to encourage the latter rather than clamp down on the former. That's my take on it anyway, would be interested to hear views from other nations.
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12-08-2004, 07:23 AM | #32 | ||||
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The use of symbols, like the scarf, is not innocent; it emphasize adherence to a group, as opposed to those who do not. It reinforces attitudes, and is meant precisely to do so. It makes communication inside the group easier, (by reinforcing group identity), and communication with those outside the group more difficult, (because of the same reason). Quote:
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In certain African countries, genital mutilation is still practised. It is the very mothers and grandmothers that bring their daughters willingly to those that perform such practise. Are these women truly free? Culture can bind a person as well, if not better, than chains and Laws. Islamic fundamentalists know this, and user it as much as they can and dare. Creating and reinforcing psychological barriers between them and others, by using symbols for instance, whenever and wherever they cannot impose physical barriers, is a natural step for those that do not want to be “contaminated” by the values of others.
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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12-08-2004, 08:42 AM | #33 | ||||
Elf Lord
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There was an episode were Sir Humphrey(?) explained to Bernard how “you” can manipulate pools to get the answer you want. He got Bernard to make opposite choices in two pools, about the same subject; priceless. Quote:
Anyway, we don’t have a State religion, and there is a separation between State and Church. The Catholic Church had some privileges, (tax and broadcasting rights during some of the most solemn religious celebrations), but no more, (some have been expanded to other religious groups, in accordance with representatively, others abolished). Religion is seen, by the large majority, a personal choice you keep to yourself, the last two presidents were Agnostic, and likely the one before that too, (I cannot remember), and few politicians claim to be actively practising a religion, and none of those ever made an issue of it, (since Democracy was re-established). Quote:
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Carrot and stick seem a fine solution to me.
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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12-08-2004, 08:47 AM | #34 | |||
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A short comment (very unauthorative, I'll admit) on Jihad: Jihad means 'to struggle', not 'holy war' as is so often believed. There exist a great variety of opinions on what the meaning of Jihad is, and the word has gradually changed its meaning over time. At the time when the Qur'an was revealed to Mohammad, Jihad was essentially a non-violent, moral struggle. Quote:
One of my colleagues is a Muslim woman, she wears a scarf, always. In the Kindergarten last year one of the employees was a Muslim woman, she also wore the hijab, all the time. Neither of them are in any way suppressed, and there has never been any problems to communicate with them. It is just obvious to me that I have no right to tell them to stop wearing that scarf, just as they have no right to tell me to put the scarf on. Quote:
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12-08-2004, 09:39 AM | #35 | |
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the question was regarding conscription and demobilisation |
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12-08-2004, 10:19 AM | #36 |
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Islamic influence is becomming a a problem in England acctually i should re phrase that christanity and Islam comming together is a problem. Or im not even sure it is in fact christanity it is more western culture and the way we have developed. Where we are quite open to womens rights and some things are just not an issue for us.
Now as for where the problems are starting to occur i think it is a pretty 50/50 split in terms of blame for what is going on. On one side you have what i would call the 'long term residents' people who havew been in the areas in which they live for all there lives and recent realatives lives people whos culture is the culture of britian becausze culture is nothing more than a state of mind. Now these peiople in a lot of towns are begging to feel very threatned because of the amount of Asian people comming into the areas and it is the fact they move into areas they will literally try and stay on the same street if they can. Now take my home town of scunny in the space of 20 or so years there are not literally asian only neighbourhoods. Now this is seen as a threat and very unwelcomming to most people. This i think is the key problem and i think that it will sort itself out eventually but needs a lot more effort from local councils and the government to try and disperse the people throughout the towns so they are not so concentrated. Now ill point out i am not a rasict or have ever been one. The reason for the action i gave above are mainly to help people accept islam and get to know them better there is nothing worse than not haveing neighbours on speaking terms its important that people get to know the incommers and they get to know us and we reach a middle ground and at the moment that simply is not happening. The basic for this argueement is i have a very good old friend called Sanj who is of pakistanny origin who lived where i have spent most of my life in cockermouth a small out of the way town on the edge of the lake district. Now sanj is as nice a bloke you would hope to meet but because he has been raised the way he has there are no predjuices against the way we live our lives here (which im sorry to say there are in the highly concentrated areas) he is practising muslim and to be honest ive never thought twice about it and that what racial tollerence is it when you dont even think about what they believe or what colour they are you only think about who they are and judge them on that. Well that my idea for what would help care to disscuss?
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12-08-2004, 11:48 AM | #37 | |||||
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A few samples: "Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51) Interesting, wouldn’t you agree? But not serious anyway, so let us see a bit more: "Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216) "If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches." (Surah 3:156-) It is clear where some people went for inspiration to do just that. But, perhaps, something even more blunt: "Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73) And he did, not in a metaphorical way, mind you, but he actually led his faithful into battle. And more generically: "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-) Hmmm. taking all this literally, one would not call it a religion of peace and tolerance, which only defends itself. I believe you will not find anything this strong in the New Testament, for instance. Of course, I have no doubts that moderate muslins don’t take all of this literally either. Quote:
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Why do you think, they choose to wear it in the first place? What is the need for it? If my sources are correct, it is not even a demand of the Koran, despite what we sometimes are told. It is a statement; “I’m from this group, you are not.” And it was meant as such, I believe. The "guilt" is not of the western side this time. Quote:
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You were implying they were free to take a decision. I was giving you extreme examples of how not only Law and force, but culture also, can limit true freedom of choice, as the rest of my message tried to clarify. "Culture can bind a person as well, if not better, than chains and Laws. Islamic fundamentalists know this, and user it as much as they can and dare. Creating and reinforcing psychological barriers between them and others, by using symbols for instance, whenever and wherever they cannot impose physical barriers, is a natural step for those that do not want to be “contaminated” by the values of others."
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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12-08-2004, 12:07 PM | #38 | |
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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12-11-2004, 07:24 PM | #39 |
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Okay, I'll probably stir the pot a little by adding my opinions to the mix. I've just finished a week studying virtually nonstop the early Muslim expansion for an essay.
Early Muslim Expansion I completely agree with Evellon about Jihad. I know that many, perhaps even most Muslims today interpret Jihad as meaning spiritual struggle rather then physical combat. However, that translation of Jihad is to me erroneous. All one has to do is look to the history of Muhammad and early Islam to see in what way they took Jihad. Muhammad spent his first years of ministry accepting persecution for his belief from his polytheistic tribe, the Quraysh. Eventually the persecution became so intense that he was forced to flee to what is now Medina. In Medina he and his followers fought against the Jewish population and enslaved, exiled and committed mass executions on large numbers of them. It was in his time in Medina that he heard words from Allah telling him he was allowed to fight in defense of Islam. Later on in his time I believe he received messages making it mandatory to fight, as Evellon has quoted. Muhammad and his followers conquered Arabia by force of arms. Conversion was forced in some cases, and upon Muhammad's death, many tribes attempted to withdraw from the Muslim movement because they were not really believers, but had said they were believers because otherwise they would be executed. There are passages in the Koran that support this. Once Muhammad encountered a Quraysh officer who said that he believed in Allah, but did not believe Muhammad was his prophet. Muhammad said that he must believe him to be the prophet, or else he would slice his head off. The officer quickly submitted to Islam. Another part in the Koran shows Muhammad meeting people and forcing them to convert. Then he said to them, "If you had not converted, your heads would have rolled under your feet." Anyway, even if one doesn't take these passages from the Koran literally, there is historical evidence from the time period that clearly shows the Muslim religion expanding through violence. It was an incredible achievement that Muhammad made, in my opinion. He went from a small and persecuted part of a tribe to ruler of all Arabia within his lifetime. Then within the next twenty years, his successors conquered the Sasanian Empire and most of the Byzantine. They conquered numerous places by force- Northern Africa, Palestine, Iran, Syria, Iraq, Egypt . . . Their empire expanded by force for a vast amount of time, only being stopped when Charlemagne defeated them at the Battle of Poitiers (though many Muslims claim they actually were stopped because they could not conquer a city called Naravonne). Anyway, having done this history I can see that Muhammad conquered Arabia through force of arms, and his successors forged a mighty empire by force of arms. All of their achievements were amazing by my reckoning, and by the reckoning of those who made the conquests! There are manuscripts from the time showing their enthusiasm at their successes. One said, "we came barefoot, naked, without provisions or armor against the mightiest powers of the world- Persia and Byzantium, and we have made them our slaves." Some of the Christians of the time despaired that their God had allowed them to be conquered. Anyway, it's just absolutely clear from the vast history of their conquests that their Jihad was from the beginning not taken peacefully. I think many of the Muslim terrorists of today would fit right in with the individuals that started Islam. Israel/Palestine That said, I do disagree with Jerseydevil and Gaffer very strongly about the Israel-Palestinian issue. There have been Muslim preachers that have called for the destruction of all the Jews. What the Palestinians as a whole are more interested in is where tomorrow's bread is going to come from. There is immense suffering in the Gaza Strip and elsewhere. The UN made a resolution that the Israelis had to let the Palestinians back to their homes, at the same time as they acknowledged Israel's right to exist. Israel ignored the UN resolution and never allowed the Palestinians back. Many Palestinians were not simply scared out of their homes by what they heard of the Jews, but were actually forced out. But whether some were expelled or all were scared off their land, it is clear that the Israeli government never allowed them back, in spite of the UN Resolution. In fact, the Israelis bulldozed hundreds of Palestinian villages so that the Palestinians could not return. The same active policy of pushing Palestinians out is visible today. America and European countries spent a lot of money building up Palestinian infrastructure, but the Jews blasted many of those things when they went into various places in recent years, like Jenin. In Jenin they blasted schools, banks, businesses- "terrorist infrastructure" that had costed the US and Europe vast amounts of money to construct. It's an awful situation out there. In my opinion, the Palestinian terrorists that go against Israel are usually driven to do so by desperation. If you look at history, such as the Irish terrorism and such, you'll see that economic oppression is another common reason for terrorism to occur. It's not all about religion. That's why I disagree with President Bush classifying the Palestinian suicide bomber as a "homicide bomber". Not all terrorism is the same, and I don't like at all how Israel compares its own actions against hungry, demoralized people that have seen their families split and their homes destroyed to America's retaliation against Al Qaeda.
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12-14-2004, 03:34 AM | #40 | ||
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