06-22-2004, 04:03 AM | #1 |
Elf Lord
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EU Constitution
What do people think about this?
I'm still trying to work out exactly what's in it; it seems like it will be a good thing, though. Countries will retain their veto over foreign policy, defence, taxation, etc. It seems that it will streamline much of the legislative framework and, potentially, undermine the Franco-German axis that has historically dominated the EU. More specifically, will this document finally dispel the myths being peddled by the UK Independence Party? |
06-22-2004, 05:21 AM | #2 |
Lady of Letters
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It's tinkering with the details. It doesn't go anywhere near tackling the democratic deficit - it changes the uncontroversial (for ordinary people) issues like voting rights and QMV without making any difference to what those votes are actually used for. I don't have a problem with the Constitution, because it's really just a technicality to deal with enlargement - it's with the role of the institutions, not their composition, that the problem arises, IMO.
It presents some interesting issues though - not least the amusing prospect of watching the poor EU Foreign Minister attempting to work out what exactly Europe can agree on in foreign policy
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06-22-2004, 07:18 AM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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Good point on the "democratic deficit", and one that I broadly agree with. Do you agree that the Constitutional Treaty will lead to greater accountability, since it will provide a reference point and simplify some of the bureaucracy?
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06-22-2004, 02:52 PM | #4 |
The Blobbit
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I'm sceptical. I just envisage the French and Germans doing whatever the hell they like, that is not following laws that aren't in their interest. I don't disagree with that either, I think that self interest is good.
I was a little prerturbed by the EU report on human rights abuses in Iran. Not that I don't think that abuses are bad, but is it the perogative of the EU to write reports like that? If anything, shouldn't that be the role of the UN? Won't that just increase the divide between the Islamic world and the Christian Europe?
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
06-23-2004, 04:55 AM | #5 |
Elf Lord
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That's been their habit, especially the French.
I dunno though, it seems like a document like this will make it easier to work out when that's been going on, and perhaps even to build meaningful accountability mechanisms on top. On the foreign policy side, only things that are unanimously agreed will be enacted. At the moment, the EU has two foreign ministers, and the Constitution will bring them together into one office. Again, it seems like a sensible idea. It might even help stop the Americans from driving a wedge between us. |
06-23-2004, 03:12 PM | #6 | |
The Blobbit
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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06-23-2004, 03:49 PM | #7 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Personally, I don't think that's an official American policy, tho.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-23-2004, 03:51 PM | #8 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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So my quesion is - how many Europeans are going to read their 250+ page constitution? Seems a bit unmanageable to me. Does anyone outside the EU government really know what is in it? In my opinion constitutions should be short - not throw in everything and the kitchen sink. I've never seen such a large constitution before. By the way Gaffer - you don't need America to drive a wedge between you - you have France and Germany for that. In some ways - you guys are your own worst enemy. But of course - the United States went through the same thing. States not trusting each other, some trying to take control of the government, states wanting to make sure their soveriegnty isn't infringed upon. Washington DC is not part of a state because the founders didn't want a state to feel they were the federal government. It was to keep all the states equal.
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06-23-2004, 03:59 PM | #9 | |
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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06-23-2004, 04:07 PM | #10 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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It seems so much more complicated for the EU Constitution, tho. The countries involved have years and years of their own individual, unique history, as opposed to when the US made its constitution. How in the world can you tie all those years of history and culture together into one constitution?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-23-2004, 04:12 PM | #11 |
Elven Warrior
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The UK will have a referendum in 2006 to decide whether it shall adopt the EU Constitution.
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06-23-2004, 06:11 PM | #12 | |||
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06-23-2004, 07:03 PM | #13 | |
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I've heard that this constitution means, that Finland won't keep our representative in the commission (is that the name in English?). I don't see the locigs in this; shouldn't every nation in the union have their own representative there? Well, maybe I just know too little about this..
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06-23-2004, 07:24 PM | #14 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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And this is one of the reasons why we Norwegians still haven't joined you guys in your happy union.
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06-24-2004, 06:23 AM | #15 | |
The Blobbit
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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06-24-2004, 08:51 AM | #16 | ||
Lady of Letters
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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06-24-2004, 04:23 PM | #17 | |
Spammer of the Happy Thread
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And sun-star, thanks for the information. Well, I still don't think EU only works for the good of the union, and that's the way it should be. Naturally the biggest countries get the most power, and therefore Finland shouldn't be in EU, IMO. We are not like other countries in Europe.
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06-24-2004, 08:08 PM | #18 | |
The Intermittent One
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the constitution is unmanageable, unfeasable and generally unrealistic. I bet even various foreign ministers don't even read it, let alone the civil servants that really run the government. we are a country, not a state of USE (The United States of Europe). UKIP is wrong, but that doesn't automatically make the EU 'powers-that-be' right. There are good parts and bad parts to this, and I am sure all European nations need longer to examine this fully and frankly...now will someone help me down from this soapbox!! |
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06-24-2004, 08:11 PM | #19 | |
The Intermittent One
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06-24-2004, 09:00 PM | #20 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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How long will you gusy be examing this though? The Constitution has been passed - you guys have that unweildy thing that now you have to live with - right? The EU is seeming very much like it is growing into a beaurocratic mess with only a few countries to control everything.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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