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#21 |
Orodruin's Flame
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Kananaskis, AB
Posts: 1,194
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Just off the topic: is there not a sub forum being made to host all these new threads?
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Council of Entmoot - Foreign Affairs Minister - 2004-05 Visit the Ye Olde Avatar Shop and The New One Dont tell me what I cannot do Two men are on a Island, they both see a "monster", one sees a bright light, and the other sees a dark cloud My name bares no reference to the music artist. |
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#22 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
And the tie-in to the earthy wisdom of the pub remark in Chpt 1 is great, too, as Gaffer said.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#23 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
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Yes, Valandil, you put it very well.
![]() If on the one hand, you want to mention "BTW, in UT there is an interesting bit that references this very incident" or something along those lines, including some main details (is that oxymoronic?), that's fine. But if you start using UT and other texts to support your argument when debating, I would ask that you take it into another thread here (there happens to be a current thread about Gandalf's motivation where it would be appropriate to use the above quote). I hope I'm not sounding like a broken record (if anyone is too young to understand that simile, ask your parents ![]() It also forces participation in other threads, which keeps the forum nice and lively. In picking out one specific from the chapter and debating about it (or simply discussing) in its own thread, we keep the chapter threads "general" yet interesting, and avoid having pages full of posts going back and forth about one topic. I hope this answers your question. When in doubt, go ahead and throw the reference in, but if someone starts to debate with you, find or open a thread about it. |
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#24 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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great job JD!
you covered it well and touched upon one point i've argued here before... that gandalf knew (not suspected, but knew) frodo would be unable to toss the ring into the cracks of doom some don't like to see it this way, since it points to a kind of failing on frodo's part (who we come to love so much)... but in many ways, i think this is what puts tolkien above later authors who jumped on the "little guy saves the world" bandwagon... it makes it more "real"... no strength of character could overcome the one ring, or else gandalf certainly would have risked taking it himself... a quick flyby and drop off over mount doom with one of his eagle friends ![]() gandalf was following his heart, and trusting in fate, or eru... he knew this was the right course to take, even if he did not see any possibility for success in any logical way olmer ~ certainly an interesting point of view... but if i am to believe it i'll ask again more clearly: what would gandalf's motive be if things were truely as you put them? one last bit which is somewhat trivial but has always bothered me, who wrote (other than jrrt, of course ![]() Quote:
as i understand it, after he made the one, he went to war with the elves and presumably took the other sixteen... then distributed them in disguise to the dwarves and men... i never pictured sauron as a poet, but if he didn't write the rest of the verse, was it the elves? it would have to be after the war of the last alliance, which is presumably the only time they would have seen the ring inscription... and even then, why would they mention their own three rings which they tried so hard to keep secret? i may just be looking at an angle that jrrt didn't consider, but was wondering if anyone else had ever thought about this
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#25 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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I have also thought that maybe it was men who wrote the poem, although I doubt it actually. The only reason I think it might be them is because of the "doomed to die" part. But Elves also didn't look too highly on the dying of men (some gift) either.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 04-19-2004 at 09:11 PM. |
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#26 |
Mootis per forum
Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Spain
Posts: 61,439
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I agree you've done an excellent job, JD!
![]() About the ring verse, I don't know why but I've always believed it was written by the elven-smiths of Eregion, though Sauron must be the author of the lines included in the ring. But now I'm pondering if it could be one of the Nine men whom Sauron gave rings who wrote the verse. ![]()
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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#27 | |
Cyber Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Left of Rock, Right of Hard Place
Posts: 986
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JD,
A very good job of summarizing chapter 2 SOTP. I have started re-reading FOTR so I can provide some input into the discussion. So far (From chapter 2 alone) I do not see Gandalf as manipulating events/people around him for some other alternate mysterious purpose. Olmer does bring some interesting different ideas and thoughts about LOTR. Fat Middle, Interesting idea regarding the verse Quote:
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
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#28 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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![]() A few points:
* STRONGLY agree that this chapter and 'Council of Elrond' are two of the most important chapters... SO MUCH information is given! * Interesting to note that Sam & Sandyman in their discussion at The Green Dragon somewhat parallel (at least in attitudes) the conversation their fathers (Gaffer and The Miller) had 17 years earlier at The Ivy Bush. * Glad you picked up on the first mention of Aragorn... it still surprises me, with this and several other hints dropped before we meet him, that I was TOTALLY SURPRISED upon the appearance of Aragorn the first time I read this book. The hints are there, but somehow they just don't jump out at you on the first reading. (EDIT: I guess I was more surprised at who he turned out to be - though hints are dropped for that as well) * Twista - be patient about a 'sub-forum' - I imagine that will come later. * Authorship of the poem - I'd definitely say the Elves. I don't have a problem with mention of their Three Rings being in it - I doubt the poem was very widely known. * OK - some other 'quotes of wisdom from Chapter 2' (besides the one GrayMouser gives about giving life or death to those who deserve them): "So do I, and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." - Gandalf, in response to Frodo's: "I wish it need not have happened in my time." and "Such questions cannot be answered. You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have." - Gandalf, in response to Frodo's: "... Why did it come to me? Why was I chosen?" I also like the rest of Gandalf's quote mentioned by GM... the hope he holds for Gollum's very redemption, slim as the chance may seem. And the portion that follows immediately after the 'dealing out judgement': "For even the very wise cannot see all ends." Gandalf's own wisdom was imperfect and he knew it. He did the best he could to discern the right thing, and then did his best to do it. Last edited by Valandil : 04-23-2004 at 11:12 AM. |
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#29 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
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And...
"But pity stayed his hand. 'It's a pity I've run out of bullets,' he thought." Ooops, wrong book ![]()
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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#30 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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That's an interesting comment on the verse; I hadn't thought of it before.
Given that Gandalf recites it in
I agree that the pity quote is one of the best from the book. |
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#31 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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maybe sauron was really just a disgruntled poet... envious of all those elven muses
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#32 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Yeah, I hear that in the Second Age all the girls went for the elven poets. Clearly he got the knock-back off off Galadriel and decided to wreak vengeance throught Middle-Earth instead.
If only he'd found a nice girl and settled down. |
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#33 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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#34 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
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Quote:
![]() Too bad that the nice girl of his liking got scared of the life-timeless commitment . ![]() |
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#35 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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#36 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: 2nd star to the left.....
Posts: 566
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"bumping" for other latecomers, like me
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#37 |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
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I'm currently rereading LOTR and there's a part in this chapter where Gandalf tells Frodo that Gollum was probably sent out of Mordor on some "errand of mischief". I wonder what that was. Do you think Sauron sent him to hint the Ring?
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#38 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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I think the suggestion is that he knew that Gollum was as likely as anyone to find the ring, and that Sauron would then be able to nab it.
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#39 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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Yeah. He set him free and them followed him to find the Ring. This wasn't helped when Aragorn captured him.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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#40 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
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