03-18-2004, 01:45 PM | #81 | |
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03-18-2004, 02:04 PM | #82 |
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Very concise and informative, Graymouser. America gets it because of tall poppy syndrome.
It would also be worth pointing out (though I'm sure everyone knows it) that most Moslems think that Bin Laden is an extremist arsehole. Given that, IMO, it follows that a state of conflict between the West and the Moslem world suits his purposes (which would start with winning the rest of the Moslem world over to his way of thinking). Hence my belief that the "war" on terror and Iraq war have simply played into his hands. I can see that, in theory, installing democracies throughout the Middle East would undermine (but not eliminate) such extremism. However, the key word there is "installing". |
03-18-2004, 05:54 PM | #83 |
im quite stupid
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Just for the record JD it was you that gave McDonalds as an example not me i used Pepsi owing to the fact ive seen the way they advertise to the Arab market.
Jonathan if you really think that Osama Bin Lardin wants to make the whole world islamic by flying planes into buildings your an idiot. Osama is many things but unlike your goodself (on some occasions) is not an idiot far from it he is a very clever person who has manged to escape the US for allmost 3 years now. Now before we get boged down in the argueements about the war etc i think we need to take a step back why did Al Queda attack on 9/11? As someone mentioned in the hope that US and other allie parties would withdraw troops from the middle east. Not one person in Al Queda i suspect though oh you know what if we crash these planes they are just gonna leave us alone. so that could not of been there motive. A terrorist by nature (and name) is intrested in one thing in particular............terror. Now why do it? unlike there cultures we dont or at least didnt percicute other relgions islam is free to practice in this country as im sure you know well and support. No the reason IMHO they hate us so much is that we are free and we do effect them. I suspect that our culture effects them much more than it effects our women havet taken to covering there faces now have they or are likely to. But our culture equality in the sexes, equality in the workplace, eqality in the workplace. But the thing i think worrys thems the most is the godlessness of our socity. I think that relgion and god are playing a much less important part in life today i see in kids today many schools in this country no longer do the lord prayer because of mixed race etc and relgious teachings are varied compared. Now how is this shown by media and such like. If my local irish pub can pick up some Arab channel they can sure as hell get our channels. The single biggest threat to terrorism is media beacuse by it and it alone can the people in the effected country see things for what they are not what they are told they are. Its what they fear and its why they attacked they are scared or at least were scared now they are laughing because again in my humble opinion many of the good of our nations have gone, we decided to ignor world opinon and our leaders ignored public opinion we are increasingly living in a right wing style of governence in the west and in a way they have allready won
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03-18-2004, 05:57 PM | #84 | ||
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Having said that - if you think that we are playing right into their hands with the War on Terror - what do you suggest? Just letting them go about their business? Quote:
We are working with Iraqis to develop a democracy. You seem to think that we are dictating to them. It is true in some things we are though - such as womens rights and 25% of the cabinet must be women. I'm sure they don't like that - at least the religious fanatics like bin Ladin. We're not going to go about doing things - just to please terrorists. Just becuase they may have some backlash to what we do. That's like saying during World War II that we shouldn't attack Normandy because the German's might get mad. I find it funny how many people here act like we shouldn't do anything because it might piss off the terrorists. The terrorists are going to attack regardless of what we do, they will find any excuse they can possibly use. The terrorists should NOT be dictating what we do, our goal is to eliminate them - and whatever it takes we will do this, just as we defeated Hitler - we will defeat the extremist fanatical muslim terrorists and all that support them.
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03-18-2004, 06:25 PM | #85 | |||||||
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I agree that it is the fact that our culture has something to do with it - if you look in my past posts on past threads - you will see that I repeatedly stated this. I have even said to people on here - that if we don't fight terrorism - I hope women like to be covered - because that is the goal of bin Ladin. bin Ladin's goal is to make the world Muslim - that is his goal. The destruction of the west. In order to destroy the west - he has to destroy the greatest country that makes up the west and that is the US. That is why he attacks us. it has nothing to do with him hating us - it has to do with him hating the west and all non-muslims and muslims who do not believe as he does. Quote:
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You have a very narrow view of the issue, of what bin Ladin wants and what his goal is it seems. You seem to think that unless we change - they win. I say it's the opposite. Why should I change what kind of music I listen to? Why should I change what I do? By the way - World Opinion is appeasement - and appeasement NEVER works. Appeasement is like sticking your head in the ground and hoping the problem goes away. The west did this for decades. 9/11 was planned out in 1995 - 6 YEARS before the attack. Clinton was too much of a wimp to do anything against bin Ladin - he kept going with the polls. We started going after bin ladin and the world got upset - saying "he's just a man in a cave". We had a chance to go after him prior to 9/11 - and we didn't do it - instead Clinton cut back on the intelligence agencies and so forth and now we have to play catch-up. This is why it is taking 3 years to catch bin Ladin - not to mention he is hiding in a mountain range the size of the Rockie Mountains. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack. The problem isn't going after the terrorists and changing the Middle East - the problem is people thinking that we shouldn't do anything because if we do do anything - we are playing into what they want. Bin Ladin counted on the US turning tail and running - and we aren't. He is NOT laughing.
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03-18-2004, 07:04 PM | #86 | |
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Osama isn't an idiot. Not because he "has manged to escape the US for allmost 3 years now" but because he knows how to hurt the US badly. Al Qaeda doesn't send planes into buildings "to make the whole world islamic" or to send the message to the Americans to get the heck out of the Middle East. Al Qaeda does it to hurt America. If the Americans due to terror attacks are divided as to whether they should withdraw from the Middle East or continue to support Israel and rebuild Iraq, al Qaeda has achieved something. Of course they would be glad if the US actually left the Middle East, but their main goal would be to eradicate America from the face of the earth. Just listen to the al Qaeda tapes and their propaganda. Kicking the US out from the Middle East is not enough, they want to kill as many Americans as possible because they hate them and will always do.
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03-18-2004, 07:12 PM | #87 | ||
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03-18-2004, 07:23 PM | #88 | ||
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Btw, I really have my doubts about the authenticity of Osama's faith. I don't think he blows American buildings up because it's God's will, but because of his personal dislike of the western world. Quote:
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03-18-2004, 07:32 PM | #89 | |||
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There was a thing on yesterday aobut a poll of Europeans - the majority think that we are over reacting to terrorism. I disagree - I think they are under reacting - just like the did with Hitler.
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03-19-2004, 06:36 AM | #90 |
im quite stupid
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I dont think we are under reacting to terrorisim at all i just dont think we go on about it as much due to experience. In this country we have had a lot of organised terrorism in the past 30 years or so (The IRA and such like) we know that it just doesnt do any good going on about so if we do seem a bit passa about im sorry.
This thread is about why they didnt like america pre 9/11 so i will make this breif as its off topic but how has 'the war on terrorism helped' terrorism cannot be fought really its down to personal choice if i decided to kill someone i could its that simple. I could easily make a bomb, i could easily take that bomb into a crowed area and set it off with or without me. As our officials said recentally sooner or later an attack will get passed but we are doing everything we can to stop it. I agree that the US was a particular target. I mean its the self styled 'land of the free' its everything they hate. You were bound to be no.1 on the hitlist. But also a point that is often overlooked (allthough not often by JD it has to be said) they attacked the world trade centres, thats world and trade possiably the most potent symbols of the west. But as for his desire to turn everyone muslim and his type of muslim i cannot for a second believe thats his aim (that mite be his justification, two very diffrent things) i mean its like my desire to be adored by every woman that walks this earth and have my pick of them good pipe dream but it aint never gonna happen he cannot achive that im sure he knows it.
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03-19-2004, 08:22 AM | #91 | |||||
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I see that Europe has never learned from History - if many people in Europe feel the same way as you do - that we really shouldn't worry about bin Ladin because his stated goal of destroying the west and making everyone Muslim is a pipedream and isn't going to happen. The only way it isn't going to happen is if we actively fight them - not play defense for decades. Playing defense against bin Ladin and fanatical muslim terrorists whose stated goal is the overthrow of the west is a losing battle and Europe had better wake up to it.
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03-19-2004, 08:59 AM | #92 | |
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03-19-2004, 09:09 AM | #93 | |
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Just bye the bye, Mr Jersydevil, what do you know about the problems in Belfast and alike? Of course New Jersey is a hive of terrorist activity... My family is Catholic, and from North Ireland. We have been suffering murders and bombings in the streets for over 40 years. Terror is nothing new. I have never assumed or even implied that the s/11 attacks were justified. I hate terror, and I have told you so, in previous posts. All I ever contended was that there was a reason for the increased attacks on the US. This is all I wish to debate. And if you cannot argue this point without emotion, and cease to argue points of which you have no knowledge, then I suggest you cease to argue.
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03-19-2004, 09:13 AM | #94 |
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Did you actually want to debate with anyone, or are you just playing the devil's advocate?
EDIT: Now ten minutes later, still waiting, dude. 2nd EDIT: whoops, 5 minutes, watch is a little fast.
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Well, there it is. Last edited by Beor : 03-19-2004 at 09:20 AM. |
03-19-2004, 09:18 AM | #95 | ||||
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So you're back. 5 posts you have and only in your thread. Amazing
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As has been stated the terrorist attacks are NOT against America - they are against the WEST. America is just the heart of the west that they are trying to destroy. You want to ignore this fact - as does most of Europe.
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03-19-2004, 09:22 AM | #96 | |
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They don't want debate - all they want to know is why everyone attacks america - which isn't the case and their post in the beginning are absolutely ridiculous when they stated all the countries that supposedly hate the US. Talk about someone who doesn't know anything - as he tried to claim about me.
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03-19-2004, 09:26 AM | #97 | |
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
[B] Quote:
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03-19-2004, 09:29 AM | #98 |
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Well, the Devils Advocate is one of the ways they choose Saints... Though I am sure you know that Beor!
I still stand by my claim. And all the crying beard tearing that has come to pass is not valid response. The US has played the policeman for the past 50 years, 50 years in which, bye the bye, Europe has fallen away. The US has tried to overthrow some governments, imposed sanctions on others, and generally tried to run the world their way. THIS POINT IS FOR JERSEYDEVEL: And good for them. For surely it is every own country’s own prerogative to try to fashion the world in their own best interest? This point I do not dispute. My argument is, and has been, that if America assumes this (above) posture, which it has on numerous occasions, surely it cannot wonder how it is the subject of terrorism from the third world? For what you see as your interest, surely countries, in which you are playing god, will not see it that way. Surely England around 1776 thought the same way you thought now… Those that America has not actively tried to subvert are afraid of that very thing.
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03-19-2004, 09:32 AM | #99 | |
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03-19-2004, 09:36 AM | #100 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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As for 1776 - the colonies tried to work things out with England - they refused. It was independence - not the otherthrow of britain we were after. We were fighting for the same freedoms and rights of every "britain" - except britain didn't consider the colonists british. This was made very clear to Ben Franklin - that is why he went from a loyal subject to a revolutionary over night. Maybe you should read some history.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 03-19-2004 at 09:38 AM. |
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