12-11-2003, 12:03 AM | #341 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Dave,
You generally seem much more versed in philosophy than me, but in case you're not aware of it, there's a particular philosophy called "Objectivism" (capital 'O') based on the writings of author Ayn Rand. It tries to be very strictly logical, rational, capitalistic...(ED: oh - and centers on the importance of THE INDIVIDUAL!!) here my knowledge of it breaks down. Most of us architects are somewhat aware of her and her ideals because she has written one of the few novels starring an architect ("The Fountainhead" - made into a semi-silly movie w/ Gary Cooper). If you see somebody reading it in public, 10-to-1 they're an architect or architecture student. Curious, I took the deeper plunge and read "Atlas Shrugged" - great reading for anyone who thinks they want to be a liberal, but in my opinion you have to take her with a major grain of salt. It's also over 1,000 pages - so you have to psych up for it. Anyway, her atheism is apparent - along with hedonism, but all justified by achievement, success, production, etc. Her own life ended up in shambles, which was sad, but maybe to be expected. My apologies if you're aware of all this and were simply posting way over my head on the subject! ED: On the other hand, if you look into it, you might be much more capable of seeing its flaws and picking it apart than I would. Last edited by Valandil : 12-11-2003 at 04:45 PM. |
12-11-2003, 12:11 AM | #342 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill
Posts: 2,389
|
o.O Ayn Rand...oi. I'm going to start reading "The Fountainhead" for a scholarship soon. I read Anthem years ago, and I'm a bit worried about tackling this work as well.
__________________
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell |
12-11-2003, 12:15 AM | #343 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
I also read "Anthem" - actually at one sitting in a library some years back - so I've read those three. "Fountainhead" is a lot longer than "Anthem" - I think about 700+ pages. Like I said... take her with a grain of salt! Uh... also, you may need to close your eyes when you read some of the more graphic parts.
(EDIT: PS - does it have to be "Fountainhead" or are there other things you could read for it? What is it... scholarship to an architecture school? ) Last edited by Valandil : 12-11-2003 at 12:17 AM. |
12-11-2003, 12:21 AM | #344 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 126
|
LOL, I should have started that post with “I have no idea who Ayn Rand is, but...” Actually, I have heard the name, though I was under the sexist impression that it was a guy. I believe it was a general admonition against paying the name any attention, and it appears from your words:
Quote:
--Dave
__________________
Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan Last edited by Guillaume le Maréchal : 12-11-2003 at 12:23 AM. |
|
12-11-2003, 12:28 AM | #345 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
You're quite close to the mark, Dave. She is originally from Ukraine, and when communism arose, she saw it as a great evil - even as a little girl. Her response was to create a 'godless capitalism' - one might say a totally UNcompassionate conservatism (or discompassionate - if that's more accurate... ?). (EDIT: She ended up coming to America and writing here. My older brother is a Libertarian - and somewhat into her ideas.)
Some good thoughts... butcha gotta weedem out! Last edited by Valandil : 12-11-2003 at 12:36 AM. |
12-11-2003, 12:32 AM | #346 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
12-11-2003, 12:34 AM | #347 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 126
|
Ah, so it comes full circle... Marx reacts to economic liberalism, Lenin instutionalizes Marxism, Stalin makes the system work the only way it can, and Rand in disgust plays the role of Marx in reverse. Sounds to me like she should have read some Charles Dickens before deciding that a return to economic liberalism would be a good idea.
__________________
Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan Last edited by Guillaume le Maréchal : 12-11-2003 at 12:35 AM. |
12-11-2003, 01:01 AM | #348 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
I'm not that familiar with Ayn Rand as you seem to be Valandil. A godless capitalism... I'm for the godless part if it's more for what's good for the people and not for the individual only. I just don't think that pure capitalism would work, with or without a god. Neither will pure communism work either. People are corruptable, and corrupting. I don't see any way that either would work with human beings.
|
12-11-2003, 02:48 AM | #349 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
12-11-2003, 03:03 AM | #350 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
|
|
12-11-2003, 08:13 AM | #351 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
|
Quote:
__________________
Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
|
12-11-2003, 09:41 AM | #352 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 126
|
re: the communion of saints
Today, Dec. 11th, Catholics observe the memorial of Pope Saint Damasus I, who was bishop of Rome from AD 366 to 384. Among many things, Damasus promoted the veneration of saints and martyrs and adorned their burial places in Rome. The veneration of martyrs and saints was an extremely early development in Christianity, as can be seen by the dates of Damasus’ pontificate, and there is every indication that his activities were based on long established tradition; for example, the writings of Ignatius of Antioch (martyred c. AD 115), Clement of Rome (late first century AD) and Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-200) all make reference to the cult of martyrs or particular veneration of the apostles. A passage from Saint Augustine’s Treatise Against Faustus (5th century) from today’s Liturgy of the Hours, Office of Readings, might help to highlight the points made by Gwaimir Windgem in his already excellent explanation of the communion of saints and the intercession, and veneration thereof. I’ve reproduced it here for anyone interested:
We, the Christian community, assemble to celebrate the memory of the martyrs with ritual solemnity because we want to be inspried to follow their example, share in their merits, and be helped by their prayers. Yet we erect no altars to any of the martyrs, even in the martyrs’ burial chapels themselves. No bishop, when celebrating at an altar where these holy bodies rest, has ever said, “Peter, we make this offering to you,” or “Paul, to you,” or “Cyprian, to you.” No, what is offered is offered always to God, who crowned the martyrs. We offer in the chapels where the bodies of those he crowned rest, so the memories that cling to those places will stir our emotions and encourage us to greater love both for the martyrs whom we can imitate and for God whose grace enables us to do so. So we venerate the martyrs with the same veneration of love and fellowship that we give to the holy men of God still with us. We sense that the hearts of these latter are just as ready to suffer death for the sake of the Gospel, and yet we feel more devotion toward those who have already emerged victorious from the struggle. We honor those who are fighting on the battlefield of this life here below, but we honor more confidently those who have already achieved the victor’s crown and live in heaven. But the veneration strictly called “worship,” or latria, that is, the special homage belonging only to the divinity, is something we give and teach others to give to God alone. The offering of a sacrifice belongs to worship in this sense (that is why those who sacrifice to idols are called idol-worshipers), and we neither make nor tell others to make any such offering to any martyr, any holy soul, or any angel. If anyone among us falls into this error, his is corrected with words of sound doctrine and must then either mend his ways or else be shunned.
__________________
Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
12-11-2003, 09:57 AM | #353 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Quote:
|
|
12-11-2003, 12:02 PM | #354 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
12-11-2003, 12:03 PM | #355 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Who, me? O:-)
*edit* oh gee, an "accidental" double post - oh my!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-11-2003, 12:05 PM | #356 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
(and THIS post was not a spam! )
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
12-11-2003, 12:41 PM | #357 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
Post post as fast as you can, you can catch me I'm the ginerbread woman. |
|
12-11-2003, 01:26 PM | #358 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
And I suppose you noticed that Christian doctrine is on the verge of Atheist and Pagan doctrine as well. Those that believe in a deity Islam: god has given to the humans clear orders of how to live, but according to the Coran humans tend to become evil and needs god's mercy to come back on track. Aristotle: "The identity of the objects of knowledge and opinion is similar. Knowledge is the apprehension of, e.g. the attribute 'animal' as incapable of being otherwise, opinion the apprehension of 'animal' as capable of being otherwise-e.g. the apprehension that animal is an element in the essential nature of man is knowledge; the apprehension of animal as predicable of man but not as an element in man's essential nature is opinion: man is the subject in both judgements, but the mode of inherence differs." and... "Man is a rational animal. He is animal in his possession of a body With its physical needs and appetites. " more.... |
|
12-11-2003, 01:51 PM | #359 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Confucianism: humans should be considered good beings - if they are evil, that is due to lack of insight. Insight is morals and ethics.
Man as innately evil Hsün Tzu: "a warped piece of wood must wait until it has been laid against the straightening board, steamed, and forced into shape before it can become straight, because by nature it is warped. Similarly, since man's nature is evil, he must wait for the ordering power of the sage kings and the transforming power of ritual principles; only then can he achieve order and conform to goodness." Would anyone else wish to add to this? I don't want to hog all the passages. |
12-11-2003, 02:36 PM | #360 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
|
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
[TB?] News Thread | trolls' bane | General Messages | 35 | 06-22-2007 03:33 AM |
Buddy's Thread | Ruinel | General Messages | 57 | 02-11-2004 12:10 AM |
The Entmoot Presidential Debate | Darth Tater | Entmoot Archive | 163 | 12-06-2002 09:44 PM |
The Anti-theist Thread | afro-elf | General Messages | 1123 | 05-09-2002 03:46 PM |
Let Gandalf smite the Abortion thread! | Gilthalion | General Messages | 7 | 08-27-2000 02:52 PM |